[lsturbointeg]

Originally Posted by burro_blasta

Interesting you mention how a separate sub should affect the amp tune. I remember you writing about this in your thread and I asked the guy on the phone but his response didn't sound very thoughtful, more of a shrug and "well, our tune is the best" kind of answer. I'm going to ask them about it again, been getting email responses from someone else who seems more helpful so far.

I just reread what you wrote too. If I understand your install timeline, the muddiness was when you initially plugged in the un-tuned Match amp and before your RF was hooked up. Giving Bavsound the benefit of the doubt for arguments sake, if the Revenant is tuned properly, how would adding the sub in the trunk make the underseat subs muddy? If anything I figure they'd be overwhelmed by the RF (ie not as noticeable) and it's just a lost oppty to focus them on the mids instead...in other words, if the cabin speakers are all tuned properly - including an appropriate level of mid - then shouldn't adding the RF just add more powerful bass while everything else still sounds just as good?

i'm an audiophile so i have plenty of experience for car audio and home theater audio. it's pretty basic really if you understand the jist of it. BMW factory has the underseat subs set for all the low level frequencies...tweeters for the highs and the door speakers as mid bass. you implemented the RF sub so now you want all dedicated low level signals 125hz to go to the sub only. you don't need the underseat subs for that duty anymore instead you take advantage of that woofer and set them as mids. now you soundstage is more pronounced because not only do you have the door speakers as mids you also have the underseat subs as mids now. if you've had subwoofers in your previous cars it's like comparing a 15" sub to a 12" or even a 10". all sound different depending on what type of enclosure you have them in. so leaving the underseat subs as is will kinda throw off the low levels because you have an 8" competing with a 12".

also what's great about tuning the parameters yourself is what sounds good to me may not sound good to you. so you can tweak your system to your liking.

i'm in the middle of finally getting my home theater together again but every speaker has it's own dedicated signal/frequency. all low level signals will be handled by my 2 12" Klipsche. the tall tower speakers you see think of them as your door speakers and underseats that will handle frequencies 125hz and above.


i guarantee that Revenant amp is tuned for a factory system or even a Bavsound. but not with an external subwoofer. you want the capabilities of tuning if that's the case. that's a lot of money for that amp and it would suck to find out in the end you need to make adjustments because the RF sub is interfering with the underseat subs giving you that muddy sound. i know this because that's what i got when i just plugged the MatchUp the first time. good luck!

[burro_blasta]

Originally Posted by lsturbointeg

i'm an audiophile so i have plenty of experience for car audio and home theater audio. it's pretty basic really if you understand the jist of it. BMW factory has the underseat subs set for all the low level frequencies...tweeters for the highs and the door speakers as mid bass. you implemented the RF sub so now you want all dedicated low level signals 125hz to go to the sub only. you don't need the underseat subs for that duty anymore instead you take advantage of that woofer and set them as mids. now you soundstage is more pronounced because not only do you have the door speakers as mids you also have the underseat subs as mids now. if you've had subwoofers in your previous cars it's like comparing a 15" sub to a 12" or even a 10". all sound different depending on what type of enclosure you have them in. so leaving the underseat subs as is will kinda throw off the low levels because you have an 8" competing with a 12".

also what's great about tuning the parameters yourself is what sounds good to me may not sound good to you. so you can tweak your system to your liking.

i'm in the middle of finally getting my home theater together again but every speaker has it's own dedicated signal/frequency. all low level signals will be handled by my 2 12" Klipsche. the tall tower speakers you see think of them as your door speakers and underseats that will handle frequencies 125hz and above.


i guarantee that Revenant amp is tuned for a factory system or even a Bavsound. but not with an external subwoofer. you want the capabilities of tuning if that's the case. that's a lot of money for that amp and it would suck to find out in the end you need to make adjustments because the RF sub is interfering with the underseat subs giving you that muddy sound. i know this because that's what i got when i just plugged the MatchUp the first time. good luck!

Thanks dude. So, the muddiness is what happens if a couple different subs (eg 8" underseat vs 12" RF) are competing with each other and it's not tuned for that?

I'm going to push them a bit more on this and will come back.

So yea, the Revenant comes with two tunes - one for stock speakers, and one for their Stage 1 speakers. The more I stewed on the idea of a pre-tuned amp the more I liked the idea bc I'm a bit intimidated by the detailed tuning process...to your point the tech side is not rocket science but I just don't trust my ear enough and tend to convince myself of different things at different times, I'm still tweaking my RF sub settings!! God knows what torture I'd do to myself with that many more speakers...

Love that home theater bright side of a homebound 2020 is you def got your money's worth!!!

[lsturbointeg]

Originally Posted by burro_blasta

Thanks dude. So, the muddiness is what happens if a couple different subs (eg 8" underseat vs 12" RF) are competing with each other and it's not tuned for that?

I'm going to push them a bit more on this and will come back.

So yea, the Revenant comes with two tunes - one for stock speakers, and one for their Stage 1 speakers. The more I stewed on the idea of a pre-tuned amp the more I liked the idea bc I'm a bit intimidated by the detailed tuning process...to your point the tech side is not rocket science but I just don't trust my ear enough and tend to convince myself of different things at different times, I'm still tweaking my RF sub settings!! God knows what torture I'd do to myself with that many more speakers...

Love that home theater bright side of a homebound 2020 is you def got your money's worth!!!

you see how you're able to tweak the RF sub...you won't be able to do that if the Revenant doesn't give you those capabilities to make adjustments. i almost wanna say you'll have to disconnect your underseat subs if you do. those two tuning files like you said are for factory or Stage 1. neither one does not incorporate an external sub. so basically it's almost a waste because it doesn't work with what you're are trying to do or what you already have.

[burro_blasta]

Aight so Bavsound essentially said that yea, of course their tunes don't account for an extra sub but that doesn't make the tune "wrong" by any means and it's still going to be kick ass.

With that mudiness you heard, wasn't that before you had your RF sub hooked up and before the amp was tuned? If so, I'm still not sure that it'd be so noticeable at this point if, to test/replicate, you simply lowered your underseat high pass filter to overlap with your RF now that everything is set up.

But to your points, I've now seen other posts like the attached screenshot but I've had my RF going with everything else stock for months and I haven't noticed muddiness or the "delay" issue he mentions. It's definitely bc of my non-audiophile untrained ear but point is I'm wondering if this is really a big issue or if we're in splitting hairs territory...so it comes down to two options for me:

1) figure we're just splitting hairs, use Revenant Pro with professional tune, eventually paired with bavsound stage 1 speakers, which the other tune is specifically made for and hopefully is excellent

2) use match UP 7bmw (also with stage 1) and do the tune myself, including the underseat sub filter adjustment of course

I'm feeling like the benefit of the professional tune in #1 - especially with stage 1 added - will be so much better than any tuning I'd do in #2 that the benefits will outweigh the sub-optimal underseat sub situation. But that's on the assumption that the muddiness isn't actually that noticeable, which I (and Bavsound) may very well be very wrong about. Curious if you think I'd really be screwing myself or if it's more of a shrug at this point. Appreciate the back and forth on this!

[pierreye]

Originally Posted by burro_blasta

Aight so Bavsound essentially said that yea, of course their tunes don't account for an extra sub but that doesn't make the tune "wrong" by any means and it's still going to be kick ass.

With that mudiness you heard, wasn't that before you had your RF sub hooked up and before the amp was tuned? If so, I'm still not sure that it'd be so noticeable at this point if, to test/replicate, you simply lowered your underseat high pass filter to overlap with your RF now that everything is set up.

But to your points, I've now seen other posts like the attached screenshot but I've had my RF going with everything else stock for months and I haven't noticed muddiness or the "delay" issue he mentions. It's definitely bc of my non-audiophile untrained ear but point is I'm wondering if this is really a big issue or if we're in splitting hairs territory...so it comes down to two options for me:

1) figure we're just splitting hairs, use Revenant Pro with professional tune, eventually paired with bavsound stage 1 speakers, which the other tune is specifically made for and hopefully is excellent

2) use match UP 7bmw (also with stage 1) and do the tune myself, including the underseat sub filter adjustment of course

I'm feeling like the benefit of the professional tune in #1 - especially with stage 1 added - will be so much better than any tuning I'd do in #2 that the benefits will outweigh the sub-optimal underseat sub situation. But that's on the assumption that the muddiness isn't actually that noticeable, which I (and Bavsound) may very well be very wrong about. Curious if you think I'd really be screwing myself or if it's more of a shrug at this point. Appreciate the back and forth on this!

The problem with integration additional sub is as follow:
1. Overlapping of certain low frequency causing either boost or cancellation depends on your sub timing.
2. Didn't offload your underseat sub low frequency to subwoofer. You are asking the underseat sub to play frequency that it can't produce thus higher distortion.

A good integration would have a smooth transition from underseat sub to subwoofer. Timing is very important as if not set properly will cause cancellation at crossover frequency. This is common problem in Home Theater subwoofer tuning especially with multiple subwoofer.

You need a calibrated mic with REW running on Windows to capture the frequency response of your sound system to do proper tuning. If you do not have the tools or skill, get someone who have experience in audio tuning would be better. No guessing involved.

[burro_blasta]

Originally Posted by pierreye

The problem with integration additional sub is as follow:
1. Overlapping of certain low frequency causing either boost or cancellation depends on your sub timing.
2. Didn't offload your underseat sub low frequency to subwoofer. You are asking the underseat sub to play frequency that it can't produce thus higher distortion.

A good integration would have a smooth transition from underseat sub to subwoofer. Timing is very important as if not set properly will cause cancellation at crossover frequency. This is common problem in Home Theater subwoofer tuning especially with multiple subwoofer.

You need a calibrated mic with REW running on Windows to capture the frequency response of your sound system to do proper tuning. If you do not have the tools or skill, get someone who have experience in audio tuning would be better. No guessing involved.

Can you explain #2 - how would I now be asking the underseat sub to play a frequency it can't if the tune for it hasn't been changed?

And on #1, sort of same question I had to lsturbointeg...I'm understanding the concept but is this something that's really very noticeable to the average listener?

[pierreye]

Originally Posted by burro_blasta

Can you explain #2 - how would I now be asking the underseat sub to play a frequency it can't if the tune for it hasn't been changed?

And on #1, sort of same question I had to lsturbointeg...I'm understanding the concept but is this something that's really very noticeable to the average listener?

The underseat sub without sub need to cover down to around 50hz. Anything below it will start to distort at louder volume. So if you can tune the underseat sub to limit the frequency at 80hz and pass the signal to trunk subwoofer, you relieved the underseat sub from distortion when playing loud. If the Revenant tune is fix, I believe they might set the high pass filter at around 40hz to 50hz to protect the underseat woofer.

As for timing of the sub, yes it's very important. If the delay cause cancellation at the crossover frequency you will feel lack of mid bass punch from your overall system. If it boost too much at the crossover frequency your system will be very boomy and overwhelm your mid and high.

[burro_blasta]

Originally Posted by pierreye

The underseat sub without sub need to cover down to around 50hz. Anything below it will start to distort at louder volume. So if you can tune the underseat sub to limit the frequency at 80hz and pass the signal to trunk subwoofer, you relieved the underseat sub from distortion when playing loud. If the Revenant tune is fix, I believe they might set the high pass filter at around 40hz to 50hz to protect the underseat woofer.

As for timing of the sub, yes it's very important. If the delay cause cancellation at the crossover frequency you will feel lack of mid bass punch from your overall system. If it boost too much at the crossover frequency your system will be very boomy and overwhelm your mid and high.

Is the timing only an issue if th frequencies overlap? So for example if the underseat is only cut off at 50 then between 50-80 it'll overlap with the trunk sub and have issues...if the underseat is only >80, then no timing issues bc it's on different frequency than trunk sub?

[pierreye]

Originally Posted by burro_blasta

Is the timing only an issue if th frequencies overlap? So for example if the underseat is only cut off at 50 then between 50-80 it'll overlap with the trunk sub and have issues...if the underseat is only >80, then no timing issues bc it's on different frequency than trunk sub?

It's 2 different problem. Overlap will create double bass in the region.

[burro_blasta]

Originally Posted by pierreye

It's 2 different problem. Overlap will create double bass in the region.

Can delay or overlap happen if they're at different frequencies?

[pierreye]

https://www.linkwitzlab.com/frontiers_5.htm

I think this graph will explain the delay relationship between the speakers and subwoofer. When the speaker and sub is out of time alignment, the freq that arrive near the crossover will be different for both speakers. It can cause cancellation thus lower db near that freq. The effect would be less bass at that region (normally consider mid-bass punch at 80hz).

[burro_blasta]

Originally Posted by pierreye

https://www.linkwitzlab.com/frontiers_5.htm

I think this graph will explain the delay relationship between the speakers and subwoofer. When the speaker and sub is out of time alignment, the freq that arrive near the crossover will be different for both speakers. It can cause cancellation thus lower db near that freq. The effect would be less bass at that region (normally consider mid-bass punch at 80hz).

Thanks, not going to act like I'll ever understand everything in that link but it sounds like the bass issues are more than an audiophile/competition level concern - something I might actually notice

Given that, I'm now thinking that bimmertech is a better route for me...get their plug n play door components and their tuned amp. Amp is weaker than the bavsound option but overall I'll save a few hundred bucks - bimmertech amp is a little cheaper and I can buy their door speakers a la cart not the entire bavsound stage 1 set - and then I can adjust the underseat cut off myself and take it somewhere to get tuned if the bass is a real issue. With bavsound it seems like the amp and maybe speakers are higher quality but it's more expensive and there's the risk it'd be wrong with the sub and I'd never be able to adjust

[pierreye]

Originally Posted by burro_blasta

Thanks, not going to act like I'll ever understand everything in that link but it sounds like the bass issues are more than an audiophile/competition level concern - something I might actually notice

Given that, I'm now thinking that bimmertech is a better route for me...get their plug n play door components and their tuned amp. Amp is weaker than the bavsound option but overall I'll save a few hundred bucks - bimmertech amp is a little cheaper and I can buy their door speakers a la cart not the entire bavsound stage 1 set - and then I can adjust the underseat cut off myself and take it somewhere to get tuned if the bass is a real issue. With bavsound it seems like the amp and maybe speakers are higher quality but it's more expensive and there's the risk it'd be wrong with the sub and I'd never be able to adjust

Personally I would not get anything that's locked and unable to adjust the tune.

[burro_blasta]

Originally Posted by pierreye

Personally I would not get anything that's locked and unable to adjust the tune.

Thanks again for the input here!!

[lsturbointeg]

Originally Posted by burro_blasta

Thanks, not going to act like I'll ever understand everything in that link but it sounds like the bass issues are more than an audiophile/competition level concern - something I might actually notice

Given that, I'm now thinking that bimmertech is a better route for me...get their plug n play door components and their tuned amp. Amp is weaker than the bavsound option but overall I'll save a few hundred bucks - bimmertech amp is a little cheaper and I can buy their door speakers a la cart not the entire bavsound stage 1 set - and then I can adjust the underseat cut off myself and take it somewhere to get tuned if the bass is a real issue. With bavsound it seems like the amp and maybe speakers are higher quality but it's more expensive and there's the risk it'd be wrong with the sub and I'd never be able to adjust

bro, how do you plan on doing that if the Bimmertech amp does not give you those capabilities?

[burro_blasta]

Originally Posted by lsturbointeg

bro, how do you plan on doing that if the Bimmertech amp does not give you those capabilities?

The bimmertech pp86dsp is tunable, with I think the same AF laptop program as your match

[lsturbointeg]

Originally Posted by burro_blasta

The bimmertech pp86dsp is tunable, with I think the same AF laptop program as your match

okay cool! that's what you want. the ability to be able to tune and set parameters for your liking. you'll be glad you did

[burro_blasta]

Originally Posted by pierreye

Personally I would not get anything that's locked and unable to adjust the tune.

I finally wised up and followed your guys' advice - the Match UP 7BMW is on the way

Looks like to start, I will load the AF limousine tune, raise the underseat woofer highpass filter from 30 to around 80, lower the sub output lowpass from 100 to around 80, and input the measurements from my speakers...that a good start?

(Eventually I'll get the microphone and do the pink noise time alignment analysis.)

Pierreye, do you have a tune file for an f10 with stock speakers + trunk subwoofer? I saw in another thread you mentioned you're RHD so I'd have to switch right/left but it'd still be helpful to see the tune if you have one.

[pierreye]

Originally Posted by burro_blasta

I finally wised up and followed your guys' advice - the Match UP 7BMW is on the way

Looks like to start, I will load the AF limousine tune, raise the underseat woofer highpass filter from 30 to around 80, lower the sub output lowpass from 100 to around 80, and input the measurements from my speakers...that a good start?

(Eventually I'll get the microphone and do the pink noise time alignment analysis.)

Pierreye, do you have a tune file for an f10 with stock speakers + trunk subwoofer? I saw in another thread you mentioned you're RHD so I'd have to switch right/left but it'd still be helpful to see the tune if you have one.

Yes. That would be a good start. I don't have a tune file for F10 as I'm still using HK sound system. Only for my wife X3 only.

[burro_blasta]

pierreye and lsturbointeg know this, but for posterity's sake, just have to note that the Match UP 7BMW amp is excellent.

I made the basic tweaks I laid out above and it's already great. Even though I have the RF sub in the trunk, I'm really grateful for the higher wattage it sends to the underseat subs because it really fills out the sound in a way I didn't expect.

In general the sound is much more separated, the deep bass hits well, the vocals and highs are clear even in the face of heavy bass.

I haven't used the microphone time alignment or changed the EQ away from the default Limo settings but it's already plenty good enough to let it sit for awhile. If anyone finds this because they're trying to decide on amps, it's easy to see I was intimidated by the DIY tuning but those few steps were easy and sound great and in the long run it's fun to know I can mess around more.

[lsturbointeg]

Originally Posted by burro_blasta

pierreye and lsturbointeg know this, but for posterity's sake, just have to note that the Match UP 7BMW amp is excellent.

I made the basic tweaks I laid out above and it's already great. Even though I have the RF sub in the trunk, I'm really grateful for the higher wattage it sends to the underseat subs because it really fills out the sound in a way I didn't expect.

In general the sound is much more separated, the deep bass hits well, the vocals and highs are clear even in the face of heavy bass.

I haven't used the microphone time alignment or changed the EQ away from the default Limo settings but it's already plenty good enough to let it sit for awhile. If anyone finds this because they're trying to decide on amps, it's easy to see I was intimidated by the DIY tuning but those few steps were easy and sound great and in the long run it's fun to know I can mess around more.

glad you decided to listen lol! especially after we already done it with great results. like you i thought the bimmertech would be a good option but once i found out the tune is locked and i would not have the capabilities to set my parameters it didn't make sense to spend that much money.

have you tried listening to just the system without the RF sub? sounds pretty weak still right? maybe i'm a bass head but for the bass head guys you still need a sub in the rear.

[walmark]

I'd be curious to learn how the Match Up 7 upgrade for the HiFi system compares to the factory B&O system and amp. Anyone compared the two side by side (relatively speaking)?