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      11-30-2022, 11:30 AM   #67
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Again, the only option that makes sense is an S2000.

Better than a Z4, Miata, 718, Golf R, etc.

Obv you have to decide if a rear seat is really that important.
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      12-01-2022, 01:40 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Alfisti View Post
Which is why people are saying Boxster, it's a Miata with more power. To enjoy a Miata, you need very tight and twisty roads, there's no shove in the back so you better have the right conditions for it.
My thoughts as well. I test drove a 2022 Miata RF 6MT back in the summer. I figured the extra power in the ND2 would be enough (upper 5s 0-60, mid-14s@97mph 1/4 mile). The acceleration was decent, but there was hardly any shove at full throttle. But what struck me most was the total lack of drama. The induction sounds and exhaust were really quiet and the drivetrain very smooth. I guess I was hoping for a strong and deep induction wail and some vibration like a older Honda VTEC. Intakes on the ND2 only hurt power and are excessively loud and exhausts tend to drone. As such, I had to scratch the car off the list.

I then looked at 2003-2004 Z06s but the biggest turn off was the lack of parts for common failure areas like weather seals, ABS and electronics components, and OEM wheels.

I ultimately went with a 2011 Cayman 6MT base model (265hp/221tq). The car is good for ~5.4 0-60 and 13.8s@102mph. The car has more acceleration and shove than the ND2 Miata and way more audible/sensory drama, especially after I removed the intake cover/shield on the driver's side intake grill. The car feels and sounds way quicker than it really is which is fine by me. My Stage 2 M235 6MT suffices when I really want torque shove and silly acceleration.

Miatas aren't bad cars at all. Two friends have NB Miatas with basic Flyin Miata turbo kits, coil overs, wheels, and grippy tires as well. Those cars an absolute blast with those turbos. I have a soft spot for the NC and the 2.5 Ford I4 motor swap.
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      12-01-2022, 10:19 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by 3798j View Post
My recommending the Golf R was for two reasons...OP's comment about wanting a back seat and the fact that the vehicle is so easy to really hustle down a curvy back road. Now that two-seaters are being suggested, let me add the Z 3.0si coupe. Truly a joy to drive and a guarantee to start a conversation every time you fill-up at the gas station...most folks haven't seen one. Low mileage ones auctioning recently on B.A.T have gaveled in the mid-twenties.
2nd reply Miata was mentioned for 2 seaters. US market was less than 3000 non M e86 and of those less than 900 were manual thatís why not many have seen them. Itís a rare bird.
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      12-01-2022, 10:25 PM   #70
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The overall cost/maintenance/reliability leave the Z4 out for me. The Miata kills it in all of those areas. Are you choosing the Bimmer to look at, or to drive? No way it's more fun than the Miata, no way in hell. Yes, it has more power, but that doesn't make it more fun, not by a long shot.

Z4 for the looks, power, status.
Miata for everything else.
Which Z4 in reference? I have both a modded prefacelift e85 with the M54 and e86 non M with the N52.
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      12-01-2022, 10:27 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by ///MPhatic View Post
The overall cost/maintenance/reliability leave the Z4 out for me. The Miata kills it in all of those areas. Are you choosing the Bimmer to look at, or to drive? No way it's more fun than the Miata, no way in hell. Yes, it has more power, but that doesn't make it more fun, not by a long shot.

Z4 for the looks, power, status.
Miata for everything else.
Which Z4 in reference? I have both a modded prefacelift e85 with the M54 and e86 non M with the N52.
Doesn't matter. A Mazda is cheaper to maintain than a BMW. That's not news.
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      12-01-2022, 10:55 PM   #72
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Doesn't matter. A Mazda is cheaper to maintain than a BMW. That's not news.
Then it could be said Miata over any bmw. Some Z4 trims take more attention and care to maintenance than others with the variations such as with the S54 so I was asking as a point of reference rather than a general statement of this is cheaper than that per say.

I will say for a fact though our TJ wrangler has cost us more in maintenance and repairs than my E85 and theyíre only 2 years apart and have all the receipts and heartburn to prove it
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      12-01-2022, 10:59 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
Doesn't matter. A Mazda is cheaper to maintain than a BMW. That's not news.
Then it could be said Miata over any bmw. Some Z4 trims take more attention and care to maintenance than others with the variations such as with the S54 so I was asking as a point of reference rather than a general statement of this is cheaper than that per say.

I will say for a fact though our TJ wrangler has cost us more in maintenance and repairs than my E85 and they're only 2 years apart and have all the receipts and heartburn to prove it
I went from a Miata to a Z3 M Coupe. Kept it 14 years, it was a great car. But it was heavier, more powerful and more expensive. Miatas are great for their simplicity and how cheap it is to run/track them. It's just a very different tool, both have their place, but for a toy, I'd take cheap and simple every time. Of course I'm actively shopping Caterhams, so I'm not the brightest bulb.

Oh, and I'd take a Miata over any current BMW, but I'm still suffering from just how awful our F30 was.
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      12-01-2022, 11:21 PM   #74
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Of course I'm actively shopping Caterhams, so I'm not the brightest bulb.

Oh, and I'd take a Miata over any current BMW, but I'm still suffering from just how awful our F30 was.
Oh Iím still convincing the Mrs I really needed to add the E86 to the garage and no get rid of the 85. Glutton for punishment

I was never a bmw fan until Golden Eye came out thatís when the Z3 caught my attention as my dads a huge Bond fan. Not a fan of anything current either, so Iím with you on Miata over anything current, my nephewís trying to get rid of his F30 so I feel ya there.
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      12-03-2022, 07:15 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
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Originally Posted by Piper1 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
Doesn't matter. A Mazda is cheaper to maintain than a BMW. That's not news.
Then it could be said Miata over any bmw. Some Z4 trims take more attention and care to maintenance than others with the variations such as with the S54 so I was asking as a point of reference rather than a general statement of this is cheaper than that per say.

I will say for a fact though our TJ wrangler has cost us more in maintenance and repairs than my E85 and they're only 2 years apart and have all the receipts and heartburn to prove it
I went from a Miata to a Z3 M Coupe. Kept it 14 years, it was a great car. But it was heavier, more powerful and more expensive. Miatas are great for their simplicity and how cheap it is to run/track them. It's just a very different tool, both have their place, but for a toy, I'd take cheap and simple every time. Of course I'm actively shopping Caterhams, so I'm not the brightest bulb.

Oh, and I'd take a Miata over any current BMW, but I'm still suffering from just how awful our F30 was.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piper1 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
Doesn't matter. A Mazda is cheaper to maintain than a BMW. That's not news.
Then it could be said Miata over any bmw. Some Z4 trims take more attention and care to maintenance than others with the variations such as with the S54 so I was asking as a point of reference rather than a general statement of this is cheaper than that per say.

I will say for a fact though our TJ wrangler has cost us more in maintenance and repairs than my E85 and they're only 2 years apart and have all the receipts and heartburn to prove it
I went from a Miata to a Z3 M Coupe. Kept it 14 years, it was a great car. But it was heavier, more powerful and more expensive. Miatas are great for their simplicity and how cheap it is to run/track them. It's just a very different tool, both have their place, but for a toy, I'd take cheap and simple every time. Of course I'm actively shopping Caterhams, so I'm not the brightest bulb.

Oh, and I'd take a Miata over any current BMW, but I'm still suffering from just how awful our F30 was.
What F30 did you have?
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      12-03-2022, 02:43 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by mecheng77 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piper1 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
Doesn't matter. A Mazda is cheaper to maintain than a BMW. That's not news.
Then it could be said Miata over any bmw. Some Z4 trims take more attention and care to maintenance than others with the variations such as with the S54 so I was asking as a point of reference rather than a general statement of this is cheaper than that per say.

I will say for a fact though our TJ wrangler has cost us more in maintenance and repairs than my E85 and they're only 2 years apart and have all the receipts and heartburn to prove it
I went from a Miata to a Z3 M Coupe. Kept it 14 years, it was a great car. But it was heavier, more powerful and more expensive. Miatas are great for their simplicity and how cheap it is to run/track them. It's just a very different tool, both have their place, but for a toy, I'd take cheap and simple every time. Of course I'm actively shopping Caterhams, so I'm not the brightest bulb.

Oh, and I'd take a Miata over any current BMW, but I'm still suffering from just how awful our F30 was.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piper1 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
Doesn't matter. A Mazda is cheaper to maintain than a BMW. That's not news.
Then it could be said Miata over any bmw. Some Z4 trims take more attention and care to maintenance than others with the variations such as with the S54 so I was asking as a point of reference rather than a general statement of this is cheaper than that per say.

I will say for a fact though our TJ wrangler has cost us more in maintenance and repairs than my E85 and they're only 2 years apart and have all the receipts and heartburn to prove it
I went from a Miata to a Z3 M Coupe. Kept it 14 years, it was a great car. But it was heavier, more powerful and more expensive. Miatas are great for their simplicity and how cheap it is to run/track them. It's just a very different tool, both have their place, but for a toy, I'd take cheap and simple every time. Of course I'm actively shopping Caterhams, so I'm not the brightest bulb.

Oh, and I'd take a Miata over any current BMW, but I'm still suffering from just how awful our F30 was.
What F30 did you have?
An LCI 328i. We had a number of N54 and N55 cars before it. It wasn't the motor. It was the steering, the suspension, the overall numbness and the over complication of getting the correct inputs at each startup to make it even remotely fun. If you just got in and drove it, it was a truly wretched car. If you got all the right button pushes, it was a little less wretched.

Generally when I sell any car, I wonder what I'll miss about it and if the replacement will be as good. When the F30 left, I knew I had nothing to worry about.
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      12-03-2022, 04:27 PM   #77
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An LCI 328i. We had a number of N54 and N55 cars before it. It wasn't the motor. It was the steering, the suspension, the overall numbness and the over complication of getting the correct inputs at each startup to make it even remotely fun. If you just got in and drove it, it was a truly wretched car. If you got all the right button pushes, it was a little less wretched.

Generally when I sell any car, I wonder what I'll miss about it and if the replacement will be as good. When the F30 left, I knew I had nothing to worry about.
I drove several examples of the F30 when it first arrived in the US. I had one for a week as a loaner while BMW N.A. was trying to figure out the oil life monitor issue the E90 has. It was like in one fell swoop BMW forgot how to make a proper sports sedan. It was astonishing. Bad.

Worst was, with just a week in between, while the Hummer was in for warranty work, I had a Cadillac ATS for a week as a loaner after I had the F30. I figured out where the BMW DNA went; Cadillac found it and used it for the ATS.
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A manual transmission can be set to "comfort", "sport", and "track" modes simply by the technique and speed at which you shift it; it doesn't need "modes", modes are for manumatics that try to behave like a real 3-pedal manual transmission. If you can money-shift it, it's a manual transmission. "Yeah, but NO ONE puts an automatic trans shift knob on a manual transmission."

Last edited by Efthreeoh; 12-04-2022 at 08:52 AM..
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      12-03-2022, 04:36 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
An LCI 328i. We had a number of N54 and N55 cars before it. It wasn't the motor. It was the steering, the suspension, the overall numbness and the over complication of getting the correct inputs at each startup to make it even remotely fun. If you just got in and drove it, it was a truly wretched car. If you got all the right button pushes, it was a little less wretched.

Generally when I sell any car, I wonder what I'll miss about it and if the replacement will be as good. When the F30 left, I knew I had nothing to worry about.
I drove several examples of the F30 when it first arrived in the US. I had one for a week as a loaner while BMW N.A. was trying to figure out the oil life monitor issue the E90 has. It was like in one fell swoop, BMW forgot how to make a proper sports sedan. It was astonishing. Bad.

Worst was, with just a week in between, while the Hummer was in for warranty work, I had a Cadillac ATS for a week as a loaner after I had the F30. I figured out where the BMW DNA went; Cadillac found it and used it for the ATS.
Yeah, it replaced an E84 X1 35i. Since we couldn't get a 335i E91, that was as close as we could get. But it was a fantastic car, with a JB4 it surprised a lot of cars. But most importantly, all of the controls were sorted. Steering was great, brakes felt great and even the suspension was good. The F30 messed all of that up. I'd hoped the LCI would have fixed some of what was wrong with the early F30, but if it did, it was a really minor change. I've heard the G30 got it back on track, but it's so large I don't really have any interest in it now.

The ATS was great, they just had cheap interior bits and awful resale. The CT4 BW fixed the first part, but I doubt the second. I debated grabbing one when my Golf R sank, but I decided to just wait for the next one. Still waiting.
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      12-04-2022, 01:01 AM   #79
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Hello - my wife currently drives an X5 and I'm in a Tesla MYP along with a Honda Fit as our beater. That said, I have been hankering to get back into a "fun MT" car as a weekend type driver and was planning on swapping the Fit out for one.

The M2 MT would be my no brainer choice, but that might a little too much spend given our other rides. That said, I've been looking at the new CIvic Type R and the VW Golf R on the high-ish end, along with the Civic Si on the low end.

Any thoughts on the above or any others that I should be considering? I'd prefer a back seat, but might consider a two seater if it is compelling enough.

Thanks in advance!!
My son has a Golf-R, fun car for sure.....
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      12-04-2022, 09:25 AM   #80
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Yeah, it replaced an E84 X1 35i. Since we couldn't get a 335i E91, that was as close as we could get. But it was a fantastic car, with a JB4 it surprised a lot of cars. But most importantly, all of the controls were sorted. Steering was great, brakes felt great and even the suspension was good. The F30 messed all of that up. I'd hoped the LCI would have fixed some of what was wrong with the early F30, but if it did, it was a really minor change. I've heard the G30 got it back on track, but it's so large I don't really have any interest in it now.

The ATS was great, they just had cheap interior bits and awful resale. The CT4 BW fixed the first part, but I doubt the second. I debated grabbing one when my Golf R sank, but I decided to just wait for the next one. Still waiting.
I never considered the ATS interior to be lacking any quality issues; I thought it was quite nice actually; it's not like the E90's interior is anything to write home about. The mags all said the interior sucked, especially compared to the BMW and Audi, but I just saw it as different. The CUE was a bit lacking I guess, but in 2013 I was looking for a non-CUE version with a manual (serious unicorn that had to be ordered). I think any screen-based user interface in a car is pointless anyway, but I'm rogue and old skool.
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A manual transmission can be set to "comfort", "sport", and "track" modes simply by the technique and speed at which you shift it; it doesn't need "modes", modes are for manumatics that try to behave like a real 3-pedal manual transmission. If you can money-shift it, it's a manual transmission. "Yeah, but NO ONE puts an automatic trans shift knob on a manual transmission."
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      12-04-2022, 10:50 AM   #81
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Yeah, it replaced an E84 X1 35i. Since we couldn't get a 335i E91, that was as close as we could get. But it was a fantastic car, with a JB4 it surprised a lot of cars. But most importantly, all of the controls were sorted. Steering was great, brakes felt great and even the suspension was good. The F30 messed all of that up. I'd hoped the LCI would have fixed some of what was wrong with the early F30, but if it did, it was a really minor change. I've heard the G30 got it back on track, but it's so large I don't really have any interest in it now.

The ATS was great, they just had cheap interior bits and awful resale. The CT4 BW fixed the first part, but I doubt the second. I debated grabbing one when my Golf R sank, but I decided to just wait for the next one. Still waiting.
I never considered the ATS interior to be lacking any quality issues; I thought it was quite nice actually; it's not like the E90's interior is anything to write home about. The mags all said the interior sucked, especially compared to the BMW and Audi, but I just saw it as different. The CUE was a bit lacking I guess, but in 2013 I was looking for a non-CUE version with a manual (serious unicorn that had to be ordered). I think any screen-based user interface in a car is pointless anyway, but I'm rogue and old skool.
Come on, there's defending the chassis, size and spirit of the car, but if the gauges lifted form an Aveo, the broken, brittle plastic GM blinker stalk and general shabbiness don't stand out to you as materially worse than any other car, you have an impressive ability to look past things. This was in a $60k car.
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      12-04-2022, 11:16 AM   #82
Efthreeoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
Come on, there's defending the chassis, size and spirit of the car, but if the gauges lifted form an Aveo, the broken, brittle plastic GM blinker stalk and general shabbiness don't stand out to you as materially worse than any other car, you have an impressive ability to look past things. This was in a $60k car.
Not sure what the image was you posted, it came out as a thousand words...

I've never seen an Aveo, so I'm not sure if the gauges were from an Aveo. The gauges read well and provided the information needed to drive the car, so they were okay to me. I have a GM truck with probably the same stalk, which GM has used for decades since the 1980's, it has not yet broken, so maybe I found it familiar(?). Those were all the magazine complaints, did you ever actually sit in or drive the ATS. I had one for a week and racked up 800 miles in it. I found the seats very comfortable, the sightlines good. The nighttime interior lighting was a bit bright even at the lowest dimming setting. But having owned 5 BMWs over my lifetime, I think until the G chassis cars, BMW's interiors, especially lighting, to be the best in the industry. The E30 has the best BMW interior IMO, very simple and very functional and what I use to base any car's interior against. I could have easily lived with the ATS as a daily driver.

And you're right, I do have an impressive ability to look past things (especially interiors) since I recently bought a Bronco. Comparing the Bronco's interior gauge/lighting/switch functions to an E30 is like comparing a rock to the Mona Lisa. But I like the overall package of the Bronco. However, I think the gauge/lighting/switch functions COMPLETELY suck.

But mine cost under $40K and the top and doors are removeable with the interior is designed to be moisture resistant. So, one must compromise. Besides, if interiors are important to you, NEVER get in a Jeep YJ. Just sayin'
__________________
A manual transmission can be set to "comfort", "sport", and "track" modes simply by the technique and speed at which you shift it; it doesn't need "modes", modes are for manumatics that try to behave like a real 3-pedal manual transmission. If you can money-shift it, it's a manual transmission. "Yeah, but NO ONE puts an automatic trans shift knob on a manual transmission."
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      12-04-2022, 11:19 AM   #83
Red Bread
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Ha, I'm looking at building a Caterham. But the ATS V was still awful inside.
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      12-04-2022, 11:21 AM   #84
Efthreeoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
Ha, I'm looking at building a Caterham. But the ATS V was still awful inside.
Why not an Aerial Atom?
__________________
A manual transmission can be set to "comfort", "sport", and "track" modes simply by the technique and speed at which you shift it; it doesn't need "modes", modes are for manumatics that try to behave like a real 3-pedal manual transmission. If you can money-shift it, it's a manual transmission. "Yeah, but NO ONE puts an automatic trans shift knob on a manual transmission."
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      12-04-2022, 11:23 AM   #85
Red Bread
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Ha, I'm looking at building a Caterham. But the ATS V was still awful inside.
Why not an Aerial Atom?
I don't want that much abuse. I drove my Miata for a few years without ever putting the roof up. Rain, snow, etc. but having to wear leathers and a helmet is too much. Give me a windscreen and at least the idea of body panels.
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      12-04-2022, 11:29 AM   #86
Efthreeoh
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I don't want that much abuse. I drove my Miata for a few years without ever putting the roof up. Rain, snow, etc. but having to wear leathers and a helmet is too much. Give me a windscreen and at least the idea of body panels.
Understood. I thought it was going to be a track car. If I was really possessed and not married (and a bit younger), I'd get the Airel Nomad. Love that car.
__________________
A manual transmission can be set to "comfort", "sport", and "track" modes simply by the technique and speed at which you shift it; it doesn't need "modes", modes are for manumatics that try to behave like a real 3-pedal manual transmission. If you can money-shift it, it's a manual transmission. "Yeah, but NO ONE puts an automatic trans shift knob on a manual transmission."
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      12-04-2022, 11:34 AM   #87
Red Bread
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
I don't want that much abuse. I drove my Miata for a few years without ever putting the roof up. Rain, snow, etc. but having to wear leathers and a helmet is too much. Give me a windscreen and at least the idea of body panels.
Understood. I thought it was going to be a track car. If I was really possessed and not married (and a bit younger), I'd get the Airel Nomad. Love that car.
It mostly would, but I'd like to keep it road legal and use it enough that a windshield would be nice.
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      12-04-2022, 05:30 PM   #88
Piper1
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Understood. I thought it was going to be a track car. If I was really possessed and not married (and a bit younger), I'd get the Airel Nomad. Love that car.
Been very tempted to start a 818 build from factory5. That the Mrs. is not keen on of the amount of parts that will be taking over might force me back into the single category
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