2010 2011 BMW 5 Series Forum F10
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
 

2010 2011 BMW 5 Series Forum F10 BIMMERPOST Universal Forums Professional Motorsport Racing Discussion (IMSA, DTM, Formula 1, Grand-AM, Le Mans, IRL, WRC, etc..) Verstappen and Red Bull Racing boycott Sky Sports for disrespect
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      11-02-2022, 10:35 AM   #67
SoftShoe
Private First Class
SoftShoe's Avatar
132
Rep
151
Posts

Drives: '19 BMW M240i
Join Date: Jun 2021
Location: Bay Area (SF)

iTrader: (0)

RB won’t speak to a news outlet because they recognize how fragile is their version of reality.

It does come across as childish.
And I say this as someone who doesn’t speak to certain people because of their version of reality (in politics).

RB is welcome to do as they wish.

If someone else’s perception of reality is too unpleasant for them, they don’t need to entertain those people in conversation.

But they should recognize that from their decision, they will certainly not change anyone’s perception of reality.


https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/d...-one-d59jpvs3n
Appreciate 2
3798j7442.50
minn1912995.50
      11-02-2022, 12:10 PM   #68
Onesie
Colonel
Onesie's Avatar
4131
Rep
2,301
Posts

Drives: 135i
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: he from the north he from the canada

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoftShoe View Post
RB won’t speak to a news outlet because they recognize how fragile is their version of reality.

It does come across as childish.
And I say this as someone who doesn’t speak to certain people because of their version of reality (in politics).

RB is welcome to do as they wish.

If someone else’s perception of reality is too unpleasant for them, they don’t need to entertain those people in conversation.


But they should recognize that from their decision, they will certainly not change anyone’s perception of reality.


https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/d...-one-d59jpvs3n
I don’t believe the underlined to be true for RB.
I believe they’re bound by a contract. Which makes the situation even worse, according to your own text (which I agree).
__________________
BMW 135i Manual Alpine White / Coral Red N55 FOR SALE
https://www.1addicts.com/forums/show...php?p=29717259
Appreciate 0
      11-02-2022, 02:56 PM   #69
minn19
Major General
minn19's Avatar
12996
Rep
9,708
Posts

Drives: 20 Taco, 21 C4S, 22 Pathfinder
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Minnesota

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Onesie View Post
I don’t believe the underlined to be true for RB.
I believe they’re bound by a contract. Which makes the situation even worse, according to your own text (which I agree).
They could always just pay the fines like Lewis did for not attending the awards thing. They seem to be ok with breaking the rules and just writing the check.
Appreciate 2
M3WC2388.50
Onesie4130.50
      11-02-2022, 03:01 PM   #70
M3WC
Colonel
2389
Rep
2,670
Posts

Drives: BMW
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: ...location...location

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
They could always just pay the fines like Lewis did for not attending the awards thing. They seem to be ok with breaking the rules and just writing the check.
Exactly this happens in sports all the time. Nothing new.
Appreciate 2
minn1912995.50
Onesie4130.50
      11-02-2022, 03:23 PM   #71
Onesie
Colonel
Onesie's Avatar
4131
Rep
2,301
Posts

Drives: 135i
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: he from the north he from the canada

iTrader: (0)

How much is the fine? Couldn’t find it.
__________________
BMW 135i Manual Alpine White / Coral Red N55 FOR SALE
https://www.1addicts.com/forums/show...php?p=29717259
Appreciate 0
      11-02-2022, 03:28 PM   #72
minn19
Major General
minn19's Avatar
12996
Rep
9,708
Posts

Drives: 20 Taco, 21 C4S, 22 Pathfinder
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Minnesota

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Onesie View Post
How much is the fine? Couldn’t find it.
Good question, probably made up on the fly like every other FIA penalty it seems.
Appreciate 1
Onesie4130.50
      11-02-2022, 06:35 PM   #73
Artemis
Moderator
Artemis's Avatar
21638
Rep
12,351
Posts

Drives: BMW M2 Competition
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Belgium

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcoose View Post
It’ll never go away. And it shouldn’t. Massi robbed Hamilton, the British people, and black folk of a deserved and first-ever 8th championship.

Imagine if Hamilton had won last year. And this year some F1 or FIA official free-styled the rules and took Verstappen’s and the Belgium and Dutch folk their first and massively deserved championship? I’m neither Dutch, Belgium or a Verstappen fan, but would feel outraged. And the Belgium and Dutch press and folk and Verstappen fans would be entitled to express their feelings.
Refrain from politicizing the matter by suggesting a vile and baseless conspiracy theory that nationality and race has played a role in the FIA race director's decision-making at the Abu Dhabi 2021 race. You are making this up - there is absolutely no proof at all of your toxic narrative.

You're entitled to your opinion, but not to your own facts: FIA took the race decision based on the situation on track after the Latifi crash, regardless of nationality and race of all drivers, teams and FIA officials involved. Whether the race-decision was legitimate in the light of the existing FIA rules, is a different discussion. But no indications whatsoever exist that nationality and race was part of the equation.

And about the notorious final shootout lap at Abu Dhabi 2021. Hamilton and Verstappen fought it out with their cars as ultimate finale of the 2021 season. Hamilton had the advantage of keeping P1 track position as a result of the Mercedes team decision not to pit him for new tires under the safety car. All it took to clinch the victory and world title was to stay ahead of Verstappen upon reaching the chequered flag 3.2 miles further down the road. He perfectly knew that Verstappen had pitted for new tires and that Verstappen would definitely try to overtake him. Team Mercedes had made a trade-off: preference for keeping track position with current tires rather than losing track position with new tires. They gambled on the first option, as the Mercedes car had proven to be the stronger package in the final races of the 2021 season and as the highly experienced Hamilton would have the benefit of leading the final laps.

Hamilton had effectively the benefit of starting the final shootout lap as race leader. Only 1 lap separated him from the chequered flag and, indeed, he had the benefit of controlling the restart and of the race lead. But despite his excellent driving skills, vast experience, P1 track position and the knowledge of the clear and present danger of Verstappen heavily breathing in his neck, he failed to pay enough attention upon approaching Turn 5 in that all-or-nothing lap (likely he anticipated that Verstappen would attack at a later turn). Verstappen outfoxed Hamilton on the inside of Turn 5 with a cunning surprise overtake maneuver. After that overtake maneuver, the fate was sealed. The strategic gamble by team Mercedes to keep P1 track position had been to no avail, as Hamilton had squandered the P1 track position advantage in Turn 5 by failure to protect/defend the inside.

To win a race you must remain aware till the chequered flag. When under attack, cover your bases. Verstappen was aware - Hamilton apparently wasn't. Also taking into consideration earlier achievements throughout the 2021 season, Verstappen showcased during the final shootout lap against his main rival Hamilton that he did deserve the 2021 WDC title.


Name:  Hamilton_AbuDhabi_2021.jpg
Views: 247
Size:  431.2 KB
Appreciate 4
M5Rick39885.50
NYG9406.50
      11-02-2022, 07:03 PM   #74
GuidoK
#buildnotbought
GuidoK's Avatar
6630
Rep
3,838
Posts

Drives: Z4 3.0i ESS TS2+
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Tinkering in the garage

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3798j View Post
... was not having to see shallow Christian Horner talk his meaningless talk ....
You don't have to see anything.
Nobody's forcing you to watch
__________________
Z4 3.0i | ESS TS2+ supercharger | Quaife ATB LSD | Brembo/BMW performance BBK front/rear | Schrick FI cams | Schmiedmann headers+cats | Powerflex/strongflex PU bushings | Vibra-technics engine mounts | H&R anti rollbars | KW V3 coilovers/KW camber plates | Sachs race engineering clutch | tons of custom sh#t
Appreciate 2
M5Rick39885.50
NYG9406.50
      11-02-2022, 07:06 PM   #75
Onesie
Colonel
Onesie's Avatar
4131
Rep
2,301
Posts

Drives: 135i
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: he from the north he from the canada

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
Refrain from politicizing the matter by suggesting a vile and baseless conspiracy theory that nationality and race has played a role in the FIA race director's decision-making at the Abu Dhabi 2021 race. You are making this up - there is absolutely no proof at all of your toxic narrative.

You're entitled to your opinion, but not to your own facts: FIA took the race decision based on the situation on track after the Latifi crash, regardless of nationality and race of all drivers, teams and FIA officials involved. Whether the race-decision was legitimate in the light of the existing FIA rules, is a different discussion. But no indications whatsoever exist that nationality and race was part of the equation.

And about the notorious final shootout lap at Abu Dhabi 2021. Hamilton and Verstappen fought it out with their cars as ultimate finale of the 2021 season. Hamilton had the advantage of keeping P1 track position as a result of the Mercedes team decision not to pit him for new tires under the safety car. All it took to clinch the victory and world title was to stay ahead of Verstappen upon reaching the chequered flag 3.2 miles further down the road. He perfectly knew that Verstappen had pitted for new tires and that Verstappen would definitely try to overtake him. Team Mercedes had made a trade-off: preference for keeping track position with current tires rather than losing track position with new tires. They gambled on the first option, as the Mercedes car had proven to be the stronger package in the final races of the 2021 season and as the highly experienced Hamilton would have the benefit of leading the final laps.

Hamilton had effectively the benefit of starting the final shootout lap as race leader. Only 1 lap separated him from the chequered flag and, indeed, he had the benefit of controlling the restart and of the race lead. But despite his excellent driving skills, vast experience, P1 track position and the knowledge of the clear and present danger of Verstappen heavily breathing in his neck, he failed to pay enough attention upon approaching Turn 5 in that all-or-nothing lap (likely he anticipated that Verstappen would attack at a later turn). Verstappen outfoxed Hamilton on the inside of Turn 5 with a cunning surprise overtake maneuver. After that overtake maneuver, the fate was sealed. The strategic gamble by team Mercedes to keep P1 track position had been to no avail, as Hamilton had squandered the P1 track position advantage in Turn 5 by failure to protect/defend the inside.

To win a race you must remain aware till the chequered flag. When under attack, cover your bases. Verstappen was aware - Hamilton apparently wasn't. Also taking into consideration earlier achievements throughout the 2021 season, Verstappen showcased during the final shootout lap against his main rival Hamilton that he did deserve the 2021 WDC title.


Thinking an F1 race is a “motorcar race, whoever is fastest in a 3.2km stretch wins” is a fallacy.
F1 is so much more, it’s consistency, strategy, teamwork, and rules.

Fact: if cars weren’t allowed to be unlapped, HAM would have won.

That is all. One can argue all night about “gambling” for tires, but working under the assumption cars wouldn’t unlap themselves would be the right call.
__________________
BMW 135i Manual Alpine White / Coral Red N55 FOR SALE
https://www.1addicts.com/forums/show...php?p=29717259
Appreciate 1
minn1912995.50
      11-02-2022, 07:14 PM   #76
GuidoK
#buildnotbought
GuidoK's Avatar
6630
Rep
3,838
Posts

Drives: Z4 3.0i ESS TS2+
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Tinkering in the garage

iTrader: (0)

Fact: Hamilton could have come in for fresh tyres just as well as Verstappen did....
The difference is that Hamilton didn't and Verstappen did...
__________________
Z4 3.0i | ESS TS2+ supercharger | Quaife ATB LSD | Brembo/BMW performance BBK front/rear | Schrick FI cams | Schmiedmann headers+cats | Powerflex/strongflex PU bushings | Vibra-technics engine mounts | H&R anti rollbars | KW V3 coilovers/KW camber plates | Sachs race engineering clutch | tons of custom sh#t
Appreciate 5
Onesie4130.50
AlexFL7706.50
M5Rick39885.50
NYG9406.50
      11-02-2022, 07:53 PM   #77
Artemis
Moderator
Artemis's Avatar
21638
Rep
12,351
Posts

Drives: BMW M2 Competition
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Belgium

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Onesie View Post
Thinking an F1 race is a “motorcar race, whoever is fastest in a 3.2km stretch wins” is a fallacy.
F1 is so much more, it’s consistency, strategy, teamwork, and rules.

Fact: if cars weren’t allowed to be unlapped, HAM would have won.

That is all. One can argue all night about “gambling” for tires, but working under the assumption cars wouldn’t unlap themselves would be the right call.
Fact 1: the FIA race director made a decision and this decision was not overruled by FIA. Mercedes disputed the decision (in the presence of a lawyer) after the race but the complaint was dismissed. Mercedes decided not to appeal the FIA decision - it rest its case. That's also applying the rules.

That is all. One can argue all night about how Hamilton could or would have won in 2021, but he didn't. Verstappen passed him in Turn 5 of the final lap of the final 2021 race and was the first to pass the chequered flag.

Fact 2: an F1 driver wins a championship based on all points collected throughout the season. Take a closer look at how Verstappen collected WDC points in 2021 and let us know how many of those resulted from team orders ordering Perez to 'invert track position' or to 'abort fastest lap'. Subsequently, based on your findings, feel free to discuss what was fully deserved and what was, or would have been, more questionably deserved. A WDC title is supposed to reflect who overall performed best that year. Check the achievements of all 2021 F1 drivers and let us know who was leading most statistics. And mind you: facts - no fallacies, please.

Name:  FIA_12Dec21_1.jpg
Views: 146
Size:  353.0 KB
Name:  FIA_12Dec21_2.jpg
Views: 151
Size:  635.9 KB
Name:  FIA_12Dec21_3.jpg
Views: 169
Size:  59.3 KB
__________________
///M is art Artemis
Appreciate 3
GuidoK6630.00
M5Rick39885.50
NYG9406.50
      11-02-2022, 08:23 PM   #78
Onesie
Colonel
Onesie's Avatar
4131
Rep
2,301
Posts

Drives: 135i
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: he from the north he from the canada

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
Fact 1: the FIA race director made a decision and this decision was not overruled by FIA. Mercedes disputed the decision (in the presence of a lawyer) after the race but the complaint was dismissed. Mercedes decided not to appeal the FIA decision - it rest its case. That's also applying the rules.

That is all. One can argue all night about how Hamilton could or would have won in 2021, but he didn't. Verstappen passed him in Turn 5 of the final lap of the final 2021 race and was the first to pass the chequered flag.

Fact 2: an F1 driver wins a championship based on all points collected throughout the season. Take a closer look at how Verstappen collected WDC points in 2021 and let us know how many of those resulted from team orders ordering Perez to 'invert track position' or to 'abort fastest lap'. Subsequently, based on your findings, feel free to discuss what was fully deserved and what was, or would have been, more questionably deserved. A WDC title is supposed to reflect who overall performed best that year. Check the achievements of all 2021 F1 drivers and let us know who was leading most statistics. And mind you: facts - no fallacies, please.

Attachment 3023779

Attachment 3023780

Attachment 3023781
Strawman arguments because you couldn’t dispute the fact presented.

My discussion wasn’t about points or who deserved to win. But I forgot fanboys get blinded by their fanaticism and start arguing…

We’ll just let it go.
My point stands: saying “it was a race, in 3.2km” is not what F1 is about. That is a fallacy. You can even post a “Toto, it’s called a motor race” meme.

Heck, if it was, we’d be arguing about every race where a driver demonstrably is the fastest on EVERY LAP and ends up losing the race because the team messes up a pit stop, for example… Not just the final stretch. That’s all. You can disagree... That’s just an indisputable fact and the strawman arguments won’t work with me, I don’t take baits from trolls. So I won’t be responding to your deflections of subject because it’ll become a sh*show lol.
Let’s stay on topic then. This thread isn’t even about last season. It’s about whether “saying it wasn’t won fairly” is disrespectful. Didn’t see your opinion about that.
__________________
BMW 135i Manual Alpine White / Coral Red N55 FOR SALE
https://www.1addicts.com/forums/show...php?p=29717259
Appreciate 3
minn1912995.50
3798j7442.50
rwheels7066.00
      11-02-2022, 08:26 PM   #79
minn19
Major General
minn19's Avatar
12996
Rep
9,708
Posts

Drives: 20 Taco, 21 C4S, 22 Pathfinder
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Minnesota

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
Refrain from politicizing the matter by suggesting a vile and baseless conspiracy theory that nationality and race has played a role in the FIA race director's decision-making at the Abu Dhabi 2021 race. You are making this up - there is absolutely no proof at all of your toxic narrative.

You're entitled to your opinion, but not to your own facts: FIA took the race decision based on the situation on track after the Latifi crash, regardless of nationality and race of all drivers, teams and FIA officials involved. Whether the race-decision was legitimate in the light of the existing FIA rules, is a different discussion. But no indications whatsoever exist that nationality and race was part of the equation.

And about the notorious final shootout lap at Abu Dhabi 2021. Hamilton and Verstappen fought it out with their cars as ultimate finale of the 2021 season. Hamilton had the advantage of keeping P1 track position as a result of the Mercedes team decision not to pit him for new tires under the safety car. All it took to clinch the victory and world title was to stay ahead of Verstappen upon reaching the chequered flag 3.2 miles further down the road. He perfectly knew that Verstappen had pitted for new tires and that Verstappen would definitely try to overtake him. Team Mercedes had made a trade-off: preference for keeping track position with current tires rather than losing track position with new tires. They gambled on the first option, as the Mercedes car had proven to be the stronger package in the final races of the 2021 season and as the highly experienced Hamilton would have the benefit of leading the final laps.

Hamilton had effectively the benefit of starting the final shootout lap as race leader. Only 1 lap separated him from the chequered flag and, indeed, he had the benefit of controlling the restart and of the race lead. But despite his excellent driving skills, vast experience, P1 track position and the knowledge of the clear and present danger of Verstappen heavily breathing in his neck, he failed to pay enough attention upon approaching Turn 5 in that all-or-nothing lap (likely he anticipated that Verstappen would attack at a later turn). Verstappen outfoxed Hamilton on the inside of Turn 5 with a cunning surprise overtake maneuver. After that overtake maneuver, the fate was sealed. The strategic gamble by team Mercedes to keep P1 track position had been to no avail, as Hamilton had squandered the P1 track position advantage in Turn 5 by failure to protect/defend the inside.

To win a race you must remain aware till the chequered flag. When under attack, cover your bases. Verstappen was aware - Hamilton apparently wasn't. Also taking into consideration earlier achievements throughout the 2021 season, Verstappen showcased during the final shootout lap against his main rival Hamilton that he did deserve the 2021 WDC title.


Of all the stuff said here this is what draws your ire? I really can’t figure you out. Plenty of other politicized comments all the time in these threads.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
Fact: Hamilton could have come in for fresh tyres just as well as Verstappen did....
The difference is that Hamilton didn't and Verstappen did...
Why would they? They had no idea Masi would change the rules and if they do come in there is a very good chance Max doesn’t and they give him the lead. Nobody would’ve came in for tires in MB/Lewis’s situation at that time.
Appreciate 2
Onesie4130.50
3798j7442.50
      11-02-2022, 08:32 PM   #80
Marcoose
Private First Class
Marcoose's Avatar
United_States
141
Rep
197
Posts

Drives: 2016 sDrive35is
Join Date: Feb 2021
Location: San Francisco, CA

iTrader: (0)

Yep. Masi fucked up royally. Verstappen is champion*. Massi lost his job. This will never be forgotten, irrespective of ‘facts’. (Wait, and Red Bull cheated too.)
Appreciate 2
minn1912995.50
Onesie4130.50
      11-02-2022, 08:43 PM   #81
Marcoose
Private First Class
Marcoose's Avatar
United_States
141
Rep
197
Posts

Drives: 2016 sDrive35is
Join Date: Feb 2021
Location: San Francisco, CA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
They had no idea Masi would change the rules and if they do come in there is a very good chance Max doesn’t and they give him the lead. Nobody would’ve came in for tires in MB/Lewis’s situation at that time.
Precisely. Verstappen was on a ‘do the opposite’ strategy. At that point everybody knew the race would end behind the safety car. Sad as it is, that’s racing. Rules are rules. Track position was everything. Verstappen gamble worked only and only because Masi did not apply the rules. Good for Verstappen.

For the record. Verstappen did not do anything wrong. He’s a good lad, an extremely talented driver. He deserves many championships. Masi fucked up.
Appreciate 3
minn1912995.50
3798j7442.50
Onesie4130.50
      11-02-2022, 09:13 PM   #82
GuidoK
#buildnotbought
GuidoK's Avatar
6630
Rep
3,838
Posts

Drives: Z4 3.0i ESS TS2+
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Tinkering in the garage

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Nobody would’ve came in for tires in MB/Lewis’s situation at that time.
Well the closest situation to that would be zandvoort 2022.
During the last safety car (then still vsc btw) VER immediately came in for fresh softs, giving his lead away to both HAM and RUS. RUS later also came in for fresh tyres, falling behind VER, but HAM didn't and we all know the outcome of that; VER didnt even had to wait a few turns to pass HAM, he did it straigth away on the straight.
I think the biggest difference here is that VER/RB is mainly focussing on being the fastest on the track, and HAM/MERC is mainly focussing in driving in 1st place on the track.

It's really quite simple if you know that race directors have a preference to have the result of the race fought out on the track instead of due to procedural events. Masi literally said that during the saudi arabia grand prix just 1 week before Abu Dhabi
__________________
Z4 3.0i | ESS TS2+ supercharger | Quaife ATB LSD | Brembo/BMW performance BBK front/rear | Schrick FI cams | Schmiedmann headers+cats | Powerflex/strongflex PU bushings | Vibra-technics engine mounts | H&R anti rollbars | KW V3 coilovers/KW camber plates | Sachs race engineering clutch | tons of custom sh#t

Last edited by GuidoK; 11-02-2022 at 09:18 PM..
Appreciate 1
M5Rick39885.50
      11-02-2022, 09:13 PM   #83
Artemis
Moderator
Artemis's Avatar
21638
Rep
12,351
Posts

Drives: BMW M2 Competition
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Belgium

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Onesie View Post
Strawman arguments because you couldn’t dispute the fact presented.
(...) But I forgot fanboys get blinded by their fanaticism and start arguing…
(...) the strawman arguments won’t work with me, I don’t take baits from trolls. So I won’t be responding to your deflections of subject because it’ll become a sh*show lol.
Mind your language. Consider this a warning.
__________________
///M is art Artemis
Appreciate 1
NYG9406.50
      11-02-2022, 09:22 PM   #84
Artemis
Moderator
Artemis's Avatar
21638
Rep
12,351
Posts

Drives: BMW M2 Competition
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Belgium

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
It's really quite simple if you know that race directors have a preference to have the result of the race fought out on the track instead of due to procedural events. Masi literally said that during the saudi arabia grand prix just 1 week before Abu Dhabi
Excerpt from the Dec 12, 2021 decision (Abu Dhabi race):
Name:  F1_AbuDhabi_2021_RD.jpg
Views: 93
Size:  58.0 KB
__________________
///M is art Artemis
Appreciate 2
M5Rick39885.50
NYG9406.50
Closed Thread

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:17 PM.




5post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2023, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST