[indus]

I've had the 535d MS for a few months and I'm not sure how long this can last. The car has a lot of positives

1) I really like the way it looks.

2) The interior is gorgeous. I've had a look at current offerings from MB and Audi and they don't come close. I know some people may argue this point but there really is no contest.

3) The toys are fantastic.

There are a number of issues though



1) The steering. The F10 is known to have lighter steering than the E60, but I specced Integrated Active Steering without having tested it first. I think this has made it even lighter/less feedback. Even with the sport engaged in the sport auto box there just isn't enough feedback, it is over assisted.

2) The ride. This is a huge issue. Over smooth roads it feels great, much better than my E60 M5. But as soon as it hits a big pothole it loses the plot in a way my M5 never did. If I hit one of these big bumps mid corner I pee my pants because the whole car just seems as though it's going to lose it. The suspension crashes down and seems to almost bottom out in these sorts of situations.

This seems to make the whole car wobble and feel unstable.

More gentle ripples in the road seem to upset the car and make it feel unsteady as well.

The bottom line is that with the inert steering and unsettled ride on UK roads I can't seem to make rapid progress in the way the engine is powered to do.

I've only had the car a few months, it looks beautiful and the interior is head and shoulders above any offerings from MB or Audi. However the ride and steering issues are annoying me so much I will probably get rid of it ASAP.

[keanu1]

ok!! let me help you!! i will give you 10 dollars for it!!)
all i can say is ..i wish i had a 535 d Msport

[rsyed]

have you thought about going to 20" without runflats. you have the comfort (thanks to non-rfts) and you get the feel of the road. love the drive - amazing...

[Jon D]

I've covered almost 7k miles in my 535d MS since September and I share your thoughts on the steering.
My dealer has been very supportive in carrying out a full KDS alignment check, loaning me larger wheels and just last week installing new steering software, but it remains as you, I and several others have commented - detached, too light, vague on-centre and lacking in feedback.
I think this is due to the steering being electrically assisted as opposed to hydraulic and it looks as if it's here to stay. Last week I had the new 640i on test for 24hrs and although the steering was very much quicker and had far greater levels of feedback, resulting in hugely improved handling, it still had that vague on-centre lack of feel, which required constant correcting just to keep the car in a straight line. It's great fun whilst your throwing it through a series of bends, but very much like the F10 on the motorway and that's a huge disappointment to me as I was seriously considering the F12 as my next car.
As a matter of interest, do you have AD/VDC on your car?

[indus]

Thanks.

Syed, yes I have considered changing over to non run flats, this maybe my next step. However I need to be careful as there is no point in wasting more money if I am going to get rid of the car.

Jon, I have IAS but not AD/VDC. You would have thought given that the steering is 'electric' they could manipulate the software to make the steering better?

Btw, how are you finding the suspension? To me the suspension is flawed for UK roads, certain imperfections in the road can really get the suspension 'crashing' and this upsets the whole balance of the car. I don't mind a firm ride, the ride in my M5 was very firm but no matter what it hit in the road it never felt crashy or as though the suspension was bottoming out.

This is only the second time in my life I've bought a brand new car and it's been a real disappointment. I really don't know what to do next.

[Jon D]

Originally Posted by indus

Jon, I have IAS but not AD/VDC. You would have thought given that the steering is 'electric' they could manipulate the software to make the steering better?

Btw, how are you finding the suspension? To me the suspension is flawed for UK roads, certain imperfections in the road can really get the suspension 'crashing' and this upsets the whole balance of the car. I don't mind a firm ride, the ride in my M5 was very firm but no matter what it hit in the road it never felt crashy or as though the suspension was bottoming out.

This is only the second time in my life I've bought a brand new car and it's been a real disappointment. I really don't know what to do next.

I find the suspension remarkably good for such a large car, but from what you say about your F10, it would appear that this is entirely attributable to the AD/VDC. I certainly notice a significant difference between modes, especially when switching from normal to sport as the body roll all but disappears. However, I would prefer it to be harder, but the F10 setup was probably designed with a less sporty drive in mind. Again this was confirmed by driving the F12 in that it had AD/VDC, but it was much firmer in all modes - much more like my old E92 330d MS around the corners, until you wanted to maintain a straight ahead cruise and that, I think, is due to the electric assist steering.
What we should not forget is that the 535d engine and sport auto box result in one of the finest drive-trains around - all that effortless power from such low revs is amazing. The 640i (3 litre petrol unit similar or identical to the 535i) is very impressive, but it has to be worked much harder and that resulted in my averaging 22mpg (18mpg USA) over a 300 mile drive last week. The equivalently spirited drive would have returned 35mpg in my 535d.

[northernmonkey]

i've been reading this thread with interest and wondering if i actually know anything about cars anymore as i just cannot feel that much difference between the steering on my F11 and that on the E92 M-Sport or E60 M-Sport before that...yes its lighter...which i quite like as its a big car and it makes it easier to lug around so not saying i cannot feel a difference but i don't feel in anyway its vague, especially in a straight line.

i think the best way i can describe it is when i drive my wife's Q5 or when i was driving the 1-series loaner i had last week it was a bit like the sensation you used to get years ago when going from a car with power steering to one without...though not quite as extreme a difference.

i guess the setup of the F11 is a bit different as I think its got different suspension at the rear so not sure if that's playing a part also the F11 strangely sits on 245 tyres all round on the 19's whereas i think the F10 on 19's uses a staggered pattern, 275 on back i think?

On the suspension side of things, the F11 is definitely the best riding M-sport BMW i've ever owned on UK roads...which is really bizarre and in complete contrast to Indus's comments so I imagine if you're reading this forum as a potential buyer its now more confusing than ever

i think i just need to admit it...i drive like a big wuss and don't drive this car like it was meant to be driven but I just wanted to throw my 2cents in as clearly some drivers have a much better feel for a cars dynamics as JonD and Indus have...whereas numpties like me don't for what I paid for mine I could have got an M3 or similar but for me that's pointless and it would be totally wasted on me but...that's why test drives are essential so if you are reading this and considering buying...be honest with yourself and how you drive and what's important to you in a car for your daily drive...then go try one. Everyone is different but that's ok.

[Jon D]

Originally Posted by northernmonkey

i think i just need to admit it...i drive like a big wuss and don't drive this car like it was meant to be driven but I just wanted to throw my 2cents in as clearly some drivers have a much better feel for a cars dynamics as JonD and Indus have...whereas numpties like me don't for what I paid for mine I could have got an M3 or similar but for me that's pointless and it would be totally wasted on me but...that's why test drives are essential so if you are reading this and considering buying...be honest with yourself and how you drive and what's important to you in a car for your daily drive...then go try one. Everyone is different but that's ok.

Not sure whether you're being genuinely self deprecating, patronising or just taking the p**s , but I'll give you the benefit of doubt and assume the former .
I haven't driven the F11, so I can't comment on the handling - the rear suspension is air sprung/self levelling and that may well make it feel different to the F10. Do you have AD/VDC?
On the positive side and as I've previously stated, the larger diesels are terrific engines and coupled with the superb sport auto box result in one of the very best drive trains around.
You're clearly happy with the car and that's all that matters.

[rsyed]

Originally Posted by indus

Syed, yes I have considered changing over to non run flats, this maybe my next step. However I need to be careful as there is no point in wasting more money if I am going to get rid of the car.

if you do that, got a rim size bigger otherwise the drive will be too soft. As a matter of fact, 20" with non-rft is much cheaper than 20" with rft.

cheers

[northernmonkey]

definitely self deprecating.....i'm a good traffic light grand prix driver...i.e straight lines but i'm not great at stuff that needs finesse. keep thinking one day i'd like to go on a trackday instructor lead course to learn about braking/cornering technique. but its always one of those things i keep meaning to do.

don't get me wrong the steering is different to any BMW i've owned but for the way i drive it makes no difference at all and i've actually grown to like it.

i don't have AD/VCD just bog standard M-sport on the 19" wheels.

out of interest and without wanting to go OT, I wonder how you'd find the new M5??? if $$$ no object would you be keen to test when available? not seen details of how that car will be setup suspension steering wise yet. Am guessing it won't be EPS based steering.

[Jon D]

Originally Posted by northernmonkey

...out of interest and without wanting to go OT, I wonder how you'd find the new M5??? if $$$ no object would you be keen to test when available? not seen details of how that car will be setup suspension steering wise yet. Am guessing it won't be EPS based steering.

You've obviously read my mind, but it's not the M5 I'm interested in, I'm waiting for the next M3, so far rumoured to be powered by a new straight 6.
Last year I wanted to change my much loved '08 E92 330d MS for a new model, but I really disliked the 2010 changes, especially the steering. The trouble was that I'd set myself in a new car frame of mind and I was seduced by all the high tech and sublime drivetrain of the 535d. Before I knew what I was doing, it ended up in my garage and with me wondering why I thought I needed such a large car. Nonetheless, I still think it's an extremely good car, but I don't look forward to driving it as much as I did with the E92, but on the plus side, that means I don't spend so much on diesel.

[1HOT BMR]

Originally Posted by indus

1) The steering. The F10 is known to have lighter steering than the E60, but I specced Integrated Active Steering without having tested it first. I think this has made it even lighter/less feedback. Even with the sport engaged in the sport auto box there just isn't enough feedback, it is over assisted.

2) The ride. This is a huge issue. Over smooth roads it feels great, much better than my E60 M5. But as soon as it hits a big pothole it loses the plot in a way my M5 never did. If I hit one of these big bumps mid corner I pee my pants because the whole car just seems as though it's going to lose it. The suspension crashes down and seems to almost bottom out in these sorts of situations.

This seems to make the whole car wobble and feel unstable.

More gentle ripples in the road seem to upset the car and make it feel unsteady as well.

However the ride and steering issues are annoying me so much I will probably get rid of it ASAP.

1. The Integral Active Steering is tighter and has more feedback than the standard steering . . so . . . .
2. The suspension is not the problem, the RFTs IS the problem. Replace the RFTs and the crashing over small potholes and other "suspension" issues will disappear.

Who knows, maybe the switching to Michelin Pilot Super Sports (that is what I will install) will also fix your steering dislikes. Good luck.

[JOHNBMWM5]

Originally Posted by indus

I've had the 535d MS for a few months and I'm not sure how long this can last. The car has a lot of positives

1) I really like the way it looks.

2) The interior is gorgeous. I've had a look at current offerings from MB and Audi and they don't come close. I know some people may argue this point but there really is no contest.

3) The toys are fantastic.

There are a number of issues though



1) The steering. The F10 is known to have lighter steering than the E60, but I specced Integrated Active Steering without having tested it first. I think this has made it even lighter/less feedback. Even with the sport engaged in the sport auto box there just isn't enough feedback, it is over assisted.

2) The ride. This is a huge issue. Over smooth roads it feels great, much better than my E60 M5. But as soon as it hits a big pothole it loses the plot in a way my M5 never did. If I hit one of these big bumps mid corner I pee my pants because the whole car just seems as though it's going to lose it. The suspension crashes down and seems to almost bottom out in these sorts of situations.

This seems to make the whole car wobble and feel unstable.

More gentle ripples in the road seem to upset the car and make it feel unsteady as well.

The bottom line is that with the inert steering and unsettled ride on UK roads I can't seem to make rapid progress in the way the engine is powered to do.

I've only had the car a few months, it looks beautiful and the interior is head and shoulders above any offerings from MB or Audi. However the ride and steering issues are annoying me so much I will probably get rid of it ASAP.

Have you got the M Sport suspension?, if so use the "Sport Mode" suspension and Steering ONLY, on fast motorway type driving, mine is great. Economy is great too, 28/30 MPG now the weather has improved.

[indus]

Northern Monkey, the thing is I've never driven a normal E60 to compare to, I only ever drove my own E60 M5 which doesn't have RFTs and had electronic damper control. So maybe compared to your previous E60 the F11 does ride better, I don't know.

Syed, there is no way I'm shelling out vast amounts of money to buy new 20 inch rims, at the most I'll try new non RFT 19inch tyres on my current rims. There is no point throwing more money at a machine that I feel I am not destined to spend a long time with.

Jon D I'd also disagree with your view that it has an excellent drive train. The engine is very good of course but the gearbox is not very responsive. I remember posting this as a separate thread when I first got the car and everybody told me off for not taking it easy with the car LOL

Anyway, now the car is run in I'm having the same problem. If I'm driving along and suddenly want to pull out of the lane I'm in I give the gas a good prod and nothing happens for what seems like an eternity. Of course its a second or so but thats enough to make me feel the manoeuvre is dangerous and sap my confidence.

In the same way if approaching a roundabout at slow speed I see that there is a car coming some distance from my right, I give the gas a good prod, again it takes too long to kick down a gear which means I enter the roundabout slowly. The result the car from the right has to brake. If my car had kicked down sooner I could have pulled that off without inconveniencing the other driver.

The result? I'm driving slower and more like an old man as being a considerate and safe driver is important to me.

Why don't I use the flappy paddles you might ask? Personally I think these are a waste of time in a diesel car. The rev range being what it is in a diesel means you will be changing gear every 3 secs in town driving, its too much hassle. Worked well in the M5 but then that had a huge rev range.

[indus]

Originally Posted by 1HOT BMR

1. The Integral Active Steering is tighter and has more feedback than the standard steering . . so. . . .
2. The suspension is not the problem, the RFTs IS the problem. Replace the RFTs and the crashing over small potholes and other "suspension" issues will disappear.

Who knows, maybe the switching to Michelin Pilot Super Sports (that is what I will install) will also fix your steering dislikes. Good luck.

Are you joking? I have the IAS and it is not tight and has zero feedback. With the sport auto in 'normal' setting it is diabolical. In sport setting it gets a little better but is still bad enough to mean anything approaching 'spirited' or 'sporty' driving is a no no.

You are probably right about the RFTs though, does the car come with them in the USA as well?

[1HOT BMR]

Originally Posted by indus

Are you joking? I have the IAS and it is not tight and has zero feedback. With the sport auto in 'normal' setting it is diabolical. In sport setting it gets a little better but is still bad enough to mean anything approaching 'spirited' or 'sporty' driving is a no no.

You are probably right about the RFTs though, does the car come with them in the USA as well?

No, not joking but perhaps we are driving different cars. Mine is an M sport 550i with a 6 speed manual and Michelin RFTs. I've never had any steering issues and I do like the feel of my IAS equipped F10 and yes, I feel it is "sporty" for a 4 door close to 5,000 pound sedan. IMO it does have more feedback and it is tighter than the standard steering installed on other F10s. I also like the feel of driving a true sports car but I don't expect my semi-luxury and gigantic sedan to feel like a real sports car

BTW, we don't have a choice regarding the RFTs - BMW declared them mandatory for every one purchasing an F10 in the United States!

[indus]

Originally Posted by 1HOT BMR

No, not joking but perhaps we are driving different cars. Mine is an M sport 550i with a 6 speed manual and Michelin RFTs. I've never had any steering issues and I do like the feel of my IAS equipped F10 and yes, I feel it is "sporty" for a 4 door close to 5,000 pound sedan. IMO it does have more feedback and it is tighter than the standard steering installed on other F10s. I also like the feel of driving a true sports car but I don't expect my semi-luxury and gigantic sedan to feel like a real sports car

BTW, we don't have a choice regarding the RFTs - BMW declared them mandatory for every one purchasing an F10 in the United States!

Yes, we are driving different cars in regards to the fact your car has more power and a manual gearbox. The steering is the same though to the best of my knowledge.

Now you can't defy physics and I don't expect my near 2 tonne luxury saloon to handle like a light weight sports car. However that doesn't mean that the steering needs to be inert and devoid of any meaningful feedback.

I know this because the steering on my near two tonne M5 was completely different, it was accurate. Now of course a M Power car is different to a regular BMW however the steering on the F10 is basically not fit for purpose on a car that is still meant to be the luxury saloon of choice for drivers who like to drive.

I'll bet any money that BMW will revise the steering on the f10 at some point because they themselves already realise it is fundamentally flawed. Unless of course they have decided to pursue a different demographic with this car ie people who have no interest in driving dynamics and just want to waft around.

[EdM5]

I feel sorry for you.
I really wonder if the problems are somehow related to the UK road conditions? Today I did a few hundred miles on the Autobahn. Touched the 220 kmh mark several times and was cruising long stretches at 180 kmh.
The car felt brilliant, steering was tight and the ride very predictable. And unlike Northernmonkey I don't have any doubts about my driving skills

[AP]

Hi, first post on these forums but felt compelled to joing in about the steering.
Got a E39 530i mSport was thinking to change to a F10. had 2 test drives, in a 530d and a 520d Msport.
The one item I came away really disapointedon was the steering.
Too light and no feedback. When I got back to my E39, it felt like my car did NOT have power steering, it was that different.

I sent a cople of emails off to BMW UK and asked what was going on with teh sterring along with a nuber of forum threads about people moaning about the steering inclduing a recent video from Channel 5 Fifth gear program wuith a recnt test of 535d Msport. (Those of you outside of the UK probably don't get that program). First things that was commented on was the uncommunicative sterring.

I would suggest you write to BMW, if people re not telling them about this, then they won't do anything. You might argue that this is ia business and the 5 series is doing well, in fact BMW as a whle are doing well at the moment so as far as they are concerned, they feel they don't have to do anything.

It would be good to get an answer from the actual people involved in designing and testing - problem is that you have to go thrgouh customer services first and you just get the usual sales chat.

Anyway , he's was the latest reply was for your info,

----------------------------------------------------------------------
We invest a great deal into the design and manufacture of all our vehicles and we are proud of the products that we produce, nonetheless, we are realistic in the fact that some aspects of a vehicle will not satisfy each and every customer. I appreciate that you are unhappy with the feel of the steering and we value the feedback and opinions of all our customers, as we use this to improve the products and services that we provide.

I can advise that there are no current plans at this time to alter the BMW 5 Series for future production, however, there is always a possibility that the situation may change. I have forwarded your feedback to our product development department for future consideration when designing new products. I have also logged your comments under case reference xxxxxxxxxxx, which will be used as part of our ongoing quality auditing programme.

I acknowledge that you have carried out some research on the internet. The web links you have provided, while they are interesting to read, are unregulated sources of information, therefore, they do not always give a reliable representation of a possible situation. Unfortunately, I am unable to comment on the opinions of third party representatives and those of other individuals.

I am sorry that you will remain unhappy with the steering of the new BMW 5 Series, however, I trust that we will be able to restore your faith in our products in the future.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I really hope they sort out this sterring, as otherwise I think its a very good car.

[indus]

Originally Posted by EdwinF10

I feel sorry for you.
I really wonder if the problems are somehow related to the UK road conditions? Today I did a few hundred miles on the Autobahn. Touched the 220 kmh mark several times and was cruising long stretches at 180 kmh.
The car felt brilliant, steering was tight and the ride very predictable. And unlike Northernmonkey I don't have any doubts about my driving skills

Thanks Edwin. I think you are right the bad ride is related to the poor roads in the UK combined with RFT. RFT are fine when the road is smooth, but on poor surfaces they don't do well.

However the poor steering has nothing to do with the roads in the UK, imho the car just has over assisted steering that you should not expect to find in a 'drivers' car.

You say the steering felt tight on the Autobahn, but the Autobahn is hardly a test for communicative steering is it?

[indus]

Originally Posted by AP

Hi, first post on these forums but felt compelled to joing in about the steering.
Got a E39 530i mSport was thinking to change to a F10. had 2 test drives, in a 530d and a 520d Msport.
The one item I came away really disapointedon was the steering.
Too light and no feedback. When I got back to my E39, it felt like my car did NOT have power steering, it was that different.

I sent a cople of emails off to BMW UK and asked what was going on with teh sterring along with a nuber of forum threads about people moaning about the steering inclduing a recent video from Channel 5 Fifth gear program wuith a recnt test of 535d Msport. (Those of you outside of the UK probably don't get that program). First things that was commented on was the uncommunicative sterring.

I would suggest you write to BMW, if people re not telling them about this, then they won't do anything. You might argue that this is ia business and the 5 series is doing well, in fact BMW as a whle are doing well at the moment so as far as they are concerned, they feel they don't have to do anything.

It would be good to get an answer from the actual people involved in designing and testing - problem is that you have to go thrgouh customer services first and you just get the usual sales chat.

Anyway , he's was the latest reply was for your info,

----------------------------------------------------------------------
We invest a great deal into the design and manufacture of all our vehicles and we are proud of the products that we produce, nonetheless, we are realistic in the fact that some aspects of a vehicle will not satisfy each and every customer. I appreciate that you are unhappy with the feel of the steering and we value the feedback and opinions of all our customers, as we use this to improve the products and services that we provide.

I can advise that there are no current plans at this time to alter the BMW 5 Series for future production, however, there is always a possibility that the situation may change. I have forwarded your feedback to our product development department for future consideration when designing new products. I have also logged your comments under case reference xxxxxxxxxxx, which will be used as part of our ongoing quality auditing programme.

I acknowledge that you have carried out some research on the internet. The web links you have provided, while they are interesting to read, are unregulated sources of information, therefore, they do not always give a reliable representation of a possible situation. Unfortunately, I am unable to comment on the opinions of third party representatives and those of other individuals.

I am sorry that you will remain unhappy with the steering of the new BMW 5 Series, however, I trust that we will be able to restore your faith in our products in the future.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I really hope they sort out this sterring, as otherwise I think its a very good car.

Thanks for that AP. The response you had from BMW is interesting. They may deny any problem but they can't be deaf/blind to all the criticism of the steering all over the internet and press. They will have to do something about it unless of course as I said before they are after a different kind of customer ie somebody who may have bought a Mercedes in the past.

I will send a similar email to BMW and let them know that I am selling the f10 after only 2 months of ownership. I'm sure they won't give a toss about one customer like me but I think it will make me feel better.

The F10 is a fantastically well put together car, the quality is amazing. But the combination of vague steering and RFT just means it is not a drivers car imho.

[1HOT BMR]

Originally Posted by indus

The F10 is a fantastically well put together car, the quality is amazing. But the combination of vague steering and RFT just means it is not a drivers car imho.

I don't know if you lose as much money as we lose here in the US when we sell a slightly used car but I'd like to suggest to you to replace the RFTs with Michelin Super Sport (they just became available here in the US), have an alignment done and ask the tech to give it as much toe-in as he can within the specs called for, and then drive it again. I would bet that you will like the steering a lot better and the ride problems will be cured. The worst than can happen is that you will be out another $1,500 in addition to what you are losing when you sell the car - but think of all the money you'll save if you happen to like it and keep the car

Do you have the 19" M sport tires and wheels?