[delvek]

great thread, hard to wrap your arms around at times, but clarified a bit more the suspension discussion that seems to muddy the waters.

[Erasmus]

@HighlandPete. We all should move to Germany then. Great roads and for the most part: no speed limits. What are we still doing here? Just joking of course. Your information is really state-of-the-art, thanks for that. The UK road thing could explain the differences in tests. The bad thing is, and I agree on that one, is that you need to tick some expensive electronic option boxes to have you're BMW satisfy one needs. My BMW is being deliverd next weekend, and I will have a full description of the handling etc. on all types of roads with of course the usual 'toss-and-turn' stuff.

[rexus300]

Highland Pete,

I am not sure i understand why car companies cannot tune their suspension for UK roads???? I live in Michigan and 3/4 of my family live in London, England and their roads are flat and smooth while the roads in michigan are smooth in parts but with potholes and some roads with grooves and crowning. The BMW we have handles the roads in Michigan just fine though a tad stiff over the potholes due to RFT which we replace with standard high performance all season Michelins. I drive in England with the BMW 7 series ( new one), Mercedes S500, Audi Q7, etc and they are fine on the smooth roads. One thing I notice is that the roads and some highways have coarse road surfaces that you feel through the steering wheel and cabin.

[Robin_NL]

This 535iA has the 704 M suspension:
http://f10.5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=377075

I asked him if he can put his comments on the ride here in this thread.

[bimmernic]

Originally Posted by bm323

I hope it's ok, I'll copy the relevant posts over

First post from thread starter TGII

[quote name='TitangrauII530iA' date='18 April 2010 - 08:54 AM' timestamp='1271598880' post='1155049']

My first impression is that the car is much more comfortable also with the M-Sport suspension than the E60 - and still dynamic and sporty - I really like the way it drives.
TGII

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Below is a post where TGII answered some queries

[quote name='TitangrauII530iA' date='18 April 2010 ]

With respect to the ride and handling, you mentioned in one of your earlier post that you found the F10 on adaptive suspension and in "Sports" mode to be more comfortable than the E60 Sport suspension.

For the F10 on the M-Sport suspension:

(a) how comfortable is it when compared to the F10/adaptive suspension/"Sport" mode - is it less or more comfortable?

>>>> I asked this from Munich - they told that it's between normal and sport mode. The biggest difference is that it's missing the active anti roll system

(b) would you say that it is between the "Sport" and "Normal" mode of the F10/adaptive suspension in terms of comfort, that is, harder than the "Normal" mode but softer than the "Sport" mode?

© do you find it to ride too harshly or to "crash" over expansion joints or imperfections in the road (portholes, etc)?

>>>> It's always how you compare it - as I had three E60 with M-Sport suspension and F10 is really not harsh at all compared to E60 with M-Sport.

(d) do you find it to roll much when taking corners?

>>>> No, I find it stabile and really nice to drive. Comfortable and still very solid.

[quote name='TitangrauII530iA' date='20 April 2010 - 10:43 AM' timestamp='1271778200' post='1156524']
Thanks for all compliments,

I really like the F10 535iA with M-Sport suspension! Firm and comfortable at the same time. One more reason to appreciate the new F10: the paint finish is of much better quality than the E60 had.

Jukka

FIN535iA alias TitangrauII530iA/TGII has posted some thoughts on the M-Sport suspension. He has also answered some of my queries (nfnc aka Bimmernic on the other forum). See above.

However, I am sure that we all would love to hear more from him, especially on whether it eliminates some of the slight (a) pitch and roll and (b) body roll observations in certain reviews. Jukka appears to be the first known owner in the world, AFAIK, to have M-Sport suspension on the F10.

[FIN535iA]

Originally Posted by nfnc

FIN535iA alias TitangrauII530iA/TGII has posted some thoughts on the M-Sport suspension. He has also answered some of my queries (nfnc aka Bimmernic on the other forum). See above.

However, I am sure that we all would love to hear more from him, especially on whether it eliminates some of the slight (a) pitch and roll and (b) body roll observations in certain reviews. Jukka appears to be the first known owner in the world, AFAIK, to have M-Sport suspension on the F10.

Hi all,

I have always had M-Sport suspension in my 5 series BMWs except 2x E34, so 2x E39, 3x E60 and now the F10 535iA. I have not had time to drive really nice countryside roads with bends yet, but based on the normal daily routes I use to drive I would say: the car is even more dynamic than the E60 - this may be based on integral active steering - and cornering is as pleasant as ever, the only difference is that everything that happens between road and tyres is still informed to the driver, but in a more comfortable way. I would say that the car is rolling less and due to 4 wheel steering it turns extremely well and is extremely stabil in higher speeds - practice confirms the theory: turning rear wheels work as if the wheel base where even longer than its is making the car stabil. In case of E60 I used to say that if you take the M-Sport you must be ready to suffer a little bit in comfort to get a car that is really good to drive, in case of the F10 you don't loose anything in terms of driving experience compared to E60, I would even say it's better - and you don't loose too much in terms of comfort either. What I try to say: now I would recommend the M-Sport suspension to drivers who aren't as fascinated about pure driving pleasure as I am, but also want to have the comfortable ride. Saying this, is based on the fact that I was testing the adaptive drive in both F10 and F07 before fixing my order and noticed, that I didn't like other settings but sport. Somehow I like the fact that the car has fixed suspensions settings, because then you really learn to know your car and how it lets you drive it and put it to the limit. Sorry for the long story, but saying it in brief: go for M-Sport if you like to DRIVE, you will still find the traditional 5 series ultimate driving machine + more comfort as a bonus!

BR

FIN535iA

[bm323]

Originally Posted by FIN535iA

Saying this, is based on the fact that I was testing the adaptive drive in both F10 and F07 before fixing my order and noticed, that I didn't like other settings but sport. Somehow I like the fact that the car has fixed suspensions settings, because then you really learn to know your car and how it lets you drive it and put it to the limit.

BR

FIN535iA

Thanks FIN535iA, can you pls let me know the difference in drive/handling/firmness of chassis between M Sport suspension, and adaptive drive or dynamic damping/VDC on sport mode? If the F10 only has option 223 VDC (ie without the anti-roll bars), would you say that the car would roll less on sport mode, and roll even less if the F10 had the full option 2VA adaptive drive (ie with anti-roll bars and VDC)?

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by bm323

Thanks FIN535iA, can you pls let me know the difference in drive/handling/firmness of chassis between M Sport suspension, and adaptive drive or dynamic damping/VDC on sport mode? If the F10 only has option 223 VDC (ie without the anti-roll bars), would you say that the car would roll less on sport mode, and roll even less if the F10 had the full option 2VA adaptive drive (ie with anti-roll bars and VDC)?

+1... please.

HighlandPete

[FIN535iA]

Originally Posted by bm323

Thanks FIN535iA, can you pls let me know the difference in drive/handling/firmness of chassis between M Sport suspension, and adaptive drive or dynamic damping/VDC on sport mode? If the F10 only has option 223 VDC (ie without the anti-roll bars), would you say that the car would roll less on sport mode, and roll even less if the F10 had the full option 2VA adaptive drive (ie with anti-roll bars and VDC)?

Hi,

Due to limited mileage that I have driven both versions, it is not possible to answer your questions in a comphrehensive way. And the version 223 VDC is not available for 535i, which means that I didn't test it. The fact is that M-Sport suspension includes stiffer roll bars compared to standard, but 2VA includes hydraulic roll bars, which can be controlled electronically. I am happy with the M-Sport suspension and it's foreseeable and logical driving features. And as I wrote before, it's still comfortable enough for me, and much more comfortable than the E60 with M-Sport suspension.

The best advice that I can give is: just go and drive the F10 - I presume that after you return to your E60 you will miss the F10 until you order it and get the delivery. It's just so much more of a car compared to the old good E60!

BR

FIN535iA

[HighlandPete]

FIN535iA, I agree with what you are saying here, we need to experience the different systems. I will be trying a car with Adaptive Drive before I make any decisions. Hopefully there will be M-sport suspensions in the UK before I decide on the F11.

I appreciate your comment on the M-sport setup, with fixed 'mechanical' settings. I do wonder about the electronic trickery myself, I'm sure we will get conditions when we wonder whatever is going on underneath us.

On the other side of the debate, at least we will have the option to play around a bit with settings and if I want a relaxed day, can just switch to a softer mode, whereas that late night brisk drive through the glen can be dialled up to a decent sporty drive.

HighlandPete

[bm323]

Quote "For the F10 on the M-Sport suspension:

(a) how comfortable is it when compared to the F10/adaptive suspension/"Sport" mode - is it less or more comfortable?

>>>> I asked this from Munich - they told that it's between normal and sport mode. The biggest difference is that it's missing the active anti roll system"

end quote

Originally Posted by FIN535iA

Saying this, is based on the fact that I was testing the adaptive drive in both F10 and F07 before fixing my order and noticed, that I didn't like other settings but sport. Somehow I like the fact that the car has fixed suspensions settings, because then you really learn to know your car and how it lets you drive it and put it to the limit.

Thanks FIN535iA, will do so if I can get to test the different F10s. From your reply in the other forum, can you pls clarify whether Munich mentioned the chassis of an F10 with adaptive drive on sport mode is tighter than one with M sport suspension? Is this your impression from your recollection of your test drive of the F10 with adaptive drive, compared to your F10 with M sport suspension?

[bimmernic]

Originally Posted by FIN535iA

Hi all,

I have always had M-Sport suspension in my 5 series BMWs except 2x E34, so 2x E39, 3x E60 and now the F10 535iA. I have not had time to drive really nice countryside roads with bends yet, but based on the normal daily routes I use to drive I would say: the car is even more dynamic than the E60 - this may be based on integral active steering - and cornering is as pleasant as ever, the only difference is that everything that happens between road and tyres is still informed to the driver, but in a more comfortable way. I would say that the car is rolling less and due to 4 wheel steering it turns extremely well and is extremely stabil in higher speeds - practice confirms the theory: turning rear wheels work as if the wheel base where even longer than its is making the car stabil. In case of E60 I used to say that if you take the M-Sport you must be ready to suffer a little bit in comfort to get a car that is really good to drive, in case of the F10 you don't loose anything in terms of driving experience compared to E60, I would even say it's better - and you don't loose too much in terms of comfort either. What I try to say: now I would recommend the M-Sport suspension to drivers who aren't as fascinated about pure driving pleasure as I am, but also want to have the comfortable ride. Saying this, is based on the fact that I was testing the adaptive drive in both F10 and F07 before fixing my order and noticed, that I didn't like other settings but sport. Somehow I like the fact that the car has fixed suspensions settings, because then you really learn to know your car and how it lets you drive it and put it to the limit. Sorry for the long story, but saying it in brief: go for M-Sport if you like to DRIVE, you will still find the traditional 5 series ultimate driving machine + more comfort as a bonus!

BR

FIN535iA

FIN535iA, thanks for this. This confirms what I thought the M-Sport suspension would be - I think that I will like it.

Your preliminary comments on the other forum, albeit brief, was very useful in helping me finalise my decision on the M-Sport suspension. This, and my back to back drives of two E92s, one with 17" wheels, standard suspension, and the other with 18" wheels, M-Sport suspension. Not entirely scientific but hopefully representative of the differences between the standard and M-Sport suspensions.

[bobbyd1961]

whats vdc

[bm323]

Originally Posted by bobbyd1961

whats vdc

variable (dynamic/electronic) damping control, option 223

[gorban]

The Swedish edition of Auto Motor & Sports just made a test between a 523i E60 with 16" wheels non-RFT and a 523i F10 with 18" runflats. The F10 had normal suspension without VDC and the standard autobox without Dynamic Driving Control.

The overall verdict was that the E60 has a tigther suspension that gives more feedback on twisty roads. But overall, the standard suspension on the F10 was far better than the E60, especially when it comes to comfort on bad roads. The steering in the F10 was considered more harmonius and didn't require constant corrections at higher speeds as in the E60. So no complaints on the F10 with 18" RFT's and standard suspension.

The same magazine has already published a test of a 530d with all the extras. They state that they are now sure that it's not the goodies that makes the car and that also a more standard spec F10 is a wonderful car to drive.

[footie]

Originally Posted by gorban

The Swedish edition of Auto Motor & Sports just made a test between a 523i E60 with 16" wheels non-RFT and a 523i F10 with 18" runflats. The F10 had normal suspension without VDC and the standard autobox without Dynamic Driving Control.

The overall verdict was that the E60 has a tigther suspension that gives more feedback on twisty roads. But overall, the standard suspension on the F10 was far better than the E60, especially when it comes to comfort on bad roads. The steering in the F10 was considered more harmonius and didn't require constant corrections at higher speeds as in the E60. So no complaints on the F10 with 18" RFT's and standard suspension.

The same magazine has already published a test of a 530d with all the extras. They state that they are now sure that it's not the goodies that makes the car and that also a more standard spec F10 is a wonderful car to drive.

My I suggest you try the F10 with standard suspension and the largest of rims, I have and in my opinion I wouldn't ever consider such a setup without the VDC.

[Erasmus]

Originally Posted by gorban

The Swedish edition of Auto Motor & Sports just made a test between a 523i E60 with 16" wheels non-RFT and a 523i F10 with 18" runflats. The F10 had normal suspension without VDC and the standard autobox without Dynamic Driving Control.

The overall verdict was that the E60 has a tigther suspension that gives more feedback on twisty roads. But overall, the standard suspension on the F10 was far better than the E60, especially when it comes to comfort on bad roads. The steering in the F10 was considered more harmonius and didn't require constant corrections at higher speeds as in the E60. So no complaints on the F10 with 18" RFT's and standard suspension.

The same magazine has already published a test of a 530d with all the extras. They state that they are now sure that it's not the goodies that makes the car and that also a more standard spec F10 is a wonderful car to drive.

That's exactly what I'm trying to tell these guys. Three Dutch autocar magazines have tested the 523iA with standard suspension and 18RFT, all three said that it was a marveleous car, with great comfortable suspension and great steering feel. They also tested the 5series with all the extra's and where wondering if all these electronic extra''s (suspension extra's) are worthwile .... 4-2 (3 dutch car test, 1 swedish - 2 UK tests).

[gorban]

Originally Posted by Erasmus

That's exactly what I'm trying to tell these guys. Three Dutch autocar magazines have tested the 523iA with standard suspension and 18RFT, all three said that it was a marveleous car, with great comfortable suspension and great steering feel. They also tested the 5series with all the extra's and where wondering if all these electronic extra''s (suspension extra's) are worthwile .... 4-2 (3 dutch car test, 1 swedish - 2 UK tests).

Well, I have ordered an F11 520d Touring with 18's, the sports automatic and VDC just because I have read good reviews about the variable suspension and I am curious about playing with all this new technology for the F11. This way I will be able to have a more tight suspension for smaller roads and the comfort mode on the highway.

[bm323]

Originally Posted by footie

My I suggest you try the F10 with standard suspension and the largest of rims, I have and in my opinion I wouldn't ever consider such a setup without the VDC.

If you don't mind my asking, which F10, with what options and rim size have you tested pls?

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Erasmus

That's exactly what I'm trying to tell these guys. Three Dutch autocar magazines have tested the 523iA with standard suspension and 18RFT, all three said that it was a marveleous car, with great comfortable suspension and great steering feel. They also tested the 5series with all the extra's and where wondering if all these electronic extra''s (suspension extra's) are worthwile .... 4-2 (3 dutch car test, 1 swedish - 2 UK tests).

Personally I'm not too interested in whether testers have given the cars the thumbs up (or down) in one setup, or another. The difference in opinion does, to a degree, give some indication that car choice is not so straight forward, as to be assured that each model will totally satisfy.

My own 'seat of the pants' assessment (2.5 hrs drive shared between two examples) showed me, even at near base levels, the cars are so different. So I must try an Adaptive Drive model, before I even think of spending money on an F10/11.

I would never be happy with a standard suspension setup on 18" run-flat tyres. The ride was flawed, on the type of roads I drive (to me that is where it matters) and I know can be better, both for total comfort and steering feel and precision. Two factors that would break the deal, if not good enough, and cause me to look at the competition.

I've been burned heavy with the present car, only by spending another £1,500on modifying the suspension and wheels have I got what I call a "real BMW" drive, precise steering, predictable handling and composure, along with a comfortable and fluid drive.

Will I be a 'bit picky' spending £40 - 50K, sure I will. And rightly so, IMO.

HighlandPete

[Erasmus]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Personally I'm not too interested in whether testers have given the cars the thumbs up (or down) in one setup, or another. The difference in opinion does, to a degree, give some indication that car choice is not so straight forward, as to be assured that each model will totally satisfy.

My own 'seat of the pants' assessment (2.5 hrs drive shared between two examples) showed me, even at near base levels, the cars are so different. So I must try an Adaptive Drive model, before I even think of spending money on an F10/11.

I would never be happy with a standard suspension setup on 18" run-flat tyres. The ride was flawed, on the type of roads I drive (to me that is where it matters) and I know can be better, both for total comfort and steering feel and precision. Two factors that would break the deal, if not good enough, and cause me to look at the competition.

I've been burned heavy with the present car, only by spending another £1,500on modifying the suspension and wheels have I got what I call a "real BMW" drive, precise steering, predictable handling and composure, along with a comfortable and fluid drive.

Will I be a 'bit picky' spending £40 - 50K, sure I will. And rightly so, IMO.

HighlandPete

ok Pete, but that's - with all respect - only your own personal opinion.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Erasmus

ok Pete, but that's - with all respect - only your own personal opinion.

Absolutely... and could be the reason a 'diehard BMW user' moves to Merc, or Jaguar.

It was 'personal opinion' why many found the E60 a poor choice of motor, we/they didn't like the interior or the lack of ride qualities, only 'personal opinion', but too many 'personal opinions' and BMW had to sit up and listen. Hence why the F10 has to prove its worth. BMW is going to be judged on this model, again only my personal opinion, but many thousands of other opinions may be involved here as well.

BTW, I do really want one of the new F11's, but it has to really be £50k's worth of driver's car, if or when I sign on the line.

HighlandPete