2010 2011 BMW 5 Series Forum F10
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
 

2010 2011 BMW 5 Series Forum F10 BIMMERPOST Universal Forums Site Related Announcements - Suggestions - Feedback - Questions What is this?
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      11-24-2014, 10:57 PM   #67
SakhirM4
Major General
SakhirM4's Avatar
United_States
10783
Rep
8,852
Posts

Drives: '15 SO M4/'20 Z4 M40i
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Austin, TX

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2020 BMW Z4 M40i  [10.00]
2015 BMW M4  [8.76]
Quote:
Originally Posted by 04RC51 View Post
That was me!
Thanks.
__________________
Tejas Chapter, BMW CCA, mem #23915, President 27 years, www.tejaschapter.org
Appreciate 0
      11-24-2014, 10:59 PM   #68
Lups
...
Lups's Avatar
11820
Rep
15,400
Posts

Drives: I don't own a car.
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Lost as usual

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SakhirM4 View Post
That's the nicest thing someone has said to me today
Buahaha. I went on my rounds (workish kind of thing, mainly shit pouring down from the sky and me trying to use some of it as a fertilizer). I have no idea what the fuck he was doing there, and why he decided to share his opinion, but this guy had a full 20 minute rant about his amg c63 being better than mine. I tried arguing with him at first saying different doesn't make it better, and going through facts, then I gave up and translated all the old Finnish sayings I could muster that had nothing to do with cars and run them to him as a never ending loop.

If your wife didn't steal your car or made you shop for an 335i, you dude won the competition on this sad pile of M days we are living up in style.. .
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joekerr View Post
You're still a little new here, so I'll let you in on a little secret. Whenever Lups types gibberish, this is an opportunity for you to imagine it to be whatever you'd like it to be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delta0311 View Post
How would you know this? Did mommy catch you jerking off to some Big Foot porn ?

Last edited by Lups; 11-25-2014 at 10:00 AM..
Appreciate 3
      11-24-2014, 11:00 PM   #69
Lups
...
Lups's Avatar
11820
Rep
15,400
Posts

Drives: I don't own a car.
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Lost as usual

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 04RC51 View Post
I, for one, appreciate NOTHING about you or your posts. If that helps your mental state any.
And this is why you are on my friend list.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joekerr View Post
You're still a little new here, so I'll let you in on a little secret. Whenever Lups types gibberish, this is an opportunity for you to imagine it to be whatever you'd like it to be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delta0311 View Post
How would you know this? Did mommy catch you jerking off to some Big Foot porn ?
Appreciate 3
      11-24-2014, 11:09 PM   #70
tlp
Colonel
United_States
276
Rep
2,216
Posts

Drives: 991 GT3, Sold:'11 e92 M3 SG/FR
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Las Vegas/SoCal

iTrader: (6)

Garage List
It's the reach around counter.

Every time someone gives you a reach around it goes up by one.
__________________
991 GT3, Sold: '11 e92 M3 SG/FR ZCP|ZCV|ZP2|2MK|494|415|6NR|752
Appreciate 0
      11-24-2014, 11:23 PM   #71
parky1215
Lieutenant Colonel
parky1215's Avatar
545
Rep
1,973
Posts

Drives: F90 M5C | G06 X6 M60i
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Rancho Cucamonga, CA

iTrader: (13)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lups View Post
There you go! Probably the last one I'll hand out buy because of your rattle thread Peter started to rattle. That's worth a point!
I brought my car to dealer to have them look at door seal since gummy pflege is just temp solution. And as expected, they did absolutely nothing to fix it saying no rattle found after driving on uneven surface many times.

I am going to start new project to fix rattle on that door seal area permanently.
Appreciate 0
      11-24-2014, 11:28 PM   #72
Lups
...
Lups's Avatar
11820
Rep
15,400
Posts

Drives: I don't own a car.
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Lost as usual

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by parky1215 View Post
I brought my car to dealer to have them look at door seal since gummy pflege is just temp solution. And as expected, they did absolutely nothing to fix it saying no rattle found after driving on uneven surface many times.

I am going to start new project to fix rattle on that door seal area permanently.
Dude I'll drive down there just to force you to do the same for him.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joekerr View Post
You're still a little new here, so I'll let you in on a little secret. Whenever Lups types gibberish, this is an opportunity for you to imagine it to be whatever you'd like it to be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delta0311 View Post
How would you know this? Did mommy catch you jerking off to some Big Foot porn ?
Appreciate 4
      11-25-2014, 08:48 AM   #73
Lups
...
Lups's Avatar
11820
Rep
15,400
Posts

Drives: I don't own a car.
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Lost as usual

iTrader: (0)

@karussell! Get your ass off the appreciate button and go get coffee!
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joekerr View Post
You're still a little new here, so I'll let you in on a little secret. Whenever Lups types gibberish, this is an opportunity for you to imagine it to be whatever you'd like it to be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delta0311 View Post
How would you know this? Did mommy catch you jerking off to some Big Foot porn ?
Appreciate 5
      11-25-2014, 07:08 PM   #74
04RC51
Large Member
04RC51's Avatar
951
Rep
1,749
Posts

Drives: E92 M3, F82 M4
Join Date: May 2008
Location: NYC

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lups View Post
Get your ass off the appreciate button and go get coffee!
Your appreciation number being so high makes you look like a floozy to the forum!

"Oh, look at her with her fancy appreciation number, wonder how she got all them?"
__________________
2008 E92 M3 (Engine swap completed), 2015 F82 M4
Appreciate 0
      11-25-2014, 07:38 PM   #75
myzmak
Advocatus Douchebagus. Sex Marxist.
myzmak's Avatar
Canada
2413
Rep
3,415
Posts

Drives: Lucy.
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Canada

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2015 F80 M3  [10.00]
2013 MB E350 Wagon  [10.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lups View Post
@karussell! Get your ass off the appreciate button and go get coffee!
75? The lups I know would never be so helpful.

Just for that I will make you 76....
__________________
Drivin' Lucy
Appreciate 0
      11-25-2014, 07:50 PM   #76
Lups
...
Lups's Avatar
11820
Rep
15,400
Posts

Drives: I don't own a car.
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Lost as usual

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by myzmak View Post
75? The lups I know would never be so helpful.

Just for that I will make you 76....
God I hate this system so much! It's sucking the fun out of the forum
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joekerr View Post
You're still a little new here, so I'll let you in on a little secret. Whenever Lups types gibberish, this is an opportunity for you to imagine it to be whatever you'd like it to be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delta0311 View Post
How would you know this? Did mommy catch you jerking off to some Big Foot porn ?
Appreciate 3
      11-25-2014, 07:52 PM   #77
chiplee
Captain
chiplee's Avatar
307
Rep
971
Posts

Drives: 2015 M3
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Ridgecrest, CA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JTO24 View Post
...It also has to do with how non-dickish you are on the forum, to some degree...
Haha, that's got to be an interesting algorithm. Either that or it's completely subjective and the moderators update it. Either way, I can be dickish and mine is climbing lately. Maybe the algorithm can tell when you're being dickish but you're right, or maybe it likes when you admit that you're wrong? Maybe the answer is in this long ass thread that I'm not going to read. I don't know. I want to talk to this coder.
Appreciate 0
      11-25-2014, 07:58 PM   #78
04RC51
Large Member
04RC51's Avatar
951
Rep
1,749
Posts

Drives: E92 M3, F82 M4
Join Date: May 2008
Location: NYC

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lups View Post
God I hate this system so much! It's sucking the fun out of the forum
I want mine at zero, can u un-appreciate me please?
__________________
2008 E92 M3 (Engine swap completed), 2015 F82 M4
Appreciate 1
      11-25-2014, 08:00 PM   #79
Lups
...
Lups's Avatar
11820
Rep
15,400
Posts

Drives: I don't own a car.
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Lost as usual

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 04RC51 View Post
Your appreciation number being so high makes you look like a floozy to the forum!

"Oh, look at her with her fancy appreciation number, wonder how she got all them?"
Haha, well its annoying, unnecessary, and these are communities. Each of us know who to read if information is needed, most of us just fill our time with this when we have extra and what the hell are we supposed to get out of this? Posts that mattered we answer, some get us shake our heads, rest will be taken out by mkoesel and then someone finds the appreciate but to and notifications fly. Are we supposed to appreciate everyone who answer to our threads or only those who has something to say that is reasonable?

Cross that. Guys, lets just only appreciate really informative posts! That way my score will go below average gas enough and I can blend in!

I just managed to appreciate your post and I can't even take it away. Sorry
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joekerr View Post
You're still a little new here, so I'll let you in on a little secret. Whenever Lups types gibberish, this is an opportunity for you to imagine it to be whatever you'd like it to be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delta0311 View Post
How would you know this? Did mommy catch you jerking off to some Big Foot porn ?
Appreciate 2
      11-25-2014, 08:26 PM   #80
chiplee
Captain
chiplee's Avatar
307
Rep
971
Posts

Drives: 2015 M3
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Ridgecrest, CA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lups View Post
Guys, lets just only appreciate really informative posts!
It's informative you want? It's informative you shall receive. Ladies are always right.

It continues to be made apparent that too many people misunderstand what is meant by the term "theory" in science. So I thought I'd clarify. Nothing awarded the title theory in science, is just a theory in the everyday sense. Science establishes theories from hypotheses after rigorous analysis. To be clear, science is not able to establish, or even interested in establishing "facts", but theories come as close as science will ever get to being factual.

The proofs that do exist in science come from logically deduced arguments, not empirical ones. In other words, to be a "proof" in science, data sets must demonstrate that their supported proposition is true in all cases to which they apply, vice just all observed (empirical) cases, and there cannot be a single exception. In science we recognize that we have not observed, and could never observe, every instance of anything, so we don't use the word "fact". At least not in any formal or disciplined sense.

In the empirical world, pure truth simply cannot ever be reached. So in science, unproven propositions believed or strongly suspected to be true are called conjectures. And, as dear Dr. Gould said, outside of mathematics and logic, everything is conjecture.

Stephen Jay Gould also wrote, "The final proofs of logic and mathematics flow deductively from stated premises, and achieve certainty only because they are not about the empirical world." He recognized (and it is an axiom of science) that there can be no such proofs (no "FACTS") in the empirical world. This is not because nothing is true, but because there is no intellectually defensible mechanism for establishing any proposition as true "without even a single exception." To empirically establish such a quality, we would have to actually observe every single instance of the event in question. How wonderful it would be if we were actually able to do such a thing, but, sadly, we cannot.

Therefore, in the empirical world, where proof is forever foreclosed to us, we must depend on other tools for establishing confidence in our various conjectures. Those tools are evidence and reason. These tools allow us to reach conclusions with great confidence, but that confidence must always remain tentative and provisional.

Consider the example conjecture, "The sun rises in the east."

We have great confidence in the statement as a provisional truth. We have observed innumerable such events, and the sun has never disappointed us... so far. Each one of these observations is additional evidence that the sun rises in the east, and reason allows us to inductively gain great confidence that tomorrow it will do the same thing.

But, the sun doesn’t actually rise in the east at all. In fact, the sun's own motion has nothing to do with our experience of the sunrise. As we all know, it is the earth's rotation toward the east that creates the illusion of a rising sun. We now have better evidence and better reasoning that allows us to understand that the conjecture "the sun rises in the east" (considered "proved" by many for most of human history) is not actually true at all. And no matter how many times you wake me up, turn me to the east and point out that "the sun is rising in the east," you are still offering no proof. You are merely providing an additional piece of evidence for a conjecture that ultimately is false.

History is filled with similar examples of things that were considered true (and mistakenly considered "proven") that ultimately turned out to be false, so we’ve learned our lesson.

And it doesn't stop there.

Our current conjecture that the earth’s rotation toward the east creates the illusion of a rising sun is much better supported by both evidence and reason than the older conjecture that the sun rises in the east. We have great confidence that science is progressively and incrementally approaching truth... (just as it aims to do in all of its endeavors) And certainly in this example the step was a great one in that direction. But does that make our current understanding any more a "proof" than the older one? Absolutely not.

The earth rotates towards the east today, but this was not always so, and it will not always be so in the future. Let's just use the old colloquial "the sun rises in the east" for ease of understanding, but only as an idiom for the rest of this discussion.

We expect the sun to "rise in the east" tomorrow, just as it always has since we started watching it. But there will be a day when that is no longer the behavior the sun exhibits. It is almost certainly absurd to imagine the transition will happen in a single night, and the probability of that is vanishingly small. But it's not zero.

Thanks to our two tools, evidence and reason, we can have great confidence that many of our conjectures are probably 100% true. That confidence is necessarily so great that we lead our lives functionally behaving as though and understanding that they are. It would be futile to live our lives otherwise. And there is no need for anyone to embrace the absurdity that we do not know a lot of things that actually are true, just because we cannot prove them.

But that does not change the fundamental reality that everything we believe, no matter how well supported by evidence and reason, is still conjecture and never proved.

That's a long discussion leaving one major issue unanswered. Why does it matter?

It matters because debaters (usually creationists) use the false and impossible demand for nonexistent "proof" as permission to literally be stupid. If the only tools we really have are evidence and reason, and if the only way we can distinguish what is probably true from what is probably false is by the quantity and quality of those two tools, then the "fact" of the matter is that any honest ranking of our various "god conjectures" would place them all at the bottom of a broad spectrum that had the "theory" of evolution, and the "theory" of gravity, and the germ "theory" of disease, etc. near its top. And yet creationists use these words to argue for equal time for "creation science" in schools and text books. Words mean things, but sometimes they mean more than one thing. And to regard the theory of evolution as "just" a theory requires a gross misunderstanding of the nature of knowledge and of the science from which we have all benefitted.
Appreciate 3
      11-25-2014, 08:32 PM   #81
SakhirM4
Major General
SakhirM4's Avatar
United_States
10783
Rep
8,852
Posts

Drives: '15 SO M4/'20 Z4 M40i
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Austin, TX

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2020 BMW Z4 M40i  [10.00]
2015 BMW M4  [8.76]
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiplee View Post
It matters because debaters (usually creationists) use the false and impossible demand for nonexistent "proof" as permission to literally be stupid. If the only tools we really have are evidence and reason, and if the only way we can distinguish what is probably true from what is probably false is by the quantity and quality of those two tools, then the "fact" of the matter is that any honest ranking of our various "god conjectures" would place them all at the bottom of a broad spectrum that had the "theory" of evolution, and the "theory" of gravity, and the germ "theory" of disease, etc. near its top. And yet creationists use these words to argue for equal time for "creation science" in schools and text books. Words mean things, but sometimes they mean more than one thing. And to regard the theory of evolution as "just" a theory requires a gross misunderstanding of the nature of knowledge and of the science from which we have all benefitted.

You have a right to your opinion, but what does this have to do with the F8X forum.
__________________
Tejas Chapter, BMW CCA, mem #23915, President 27 years, www.tejaschapter.org
Appreciate 0
      11-25-2014, 08:33 PM   #82
chiplee
Captain
chiplee's Avatar
307
Rep
971
Posts

Drives: 2015 M3
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Ridgecrest, CA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SakhirM4 View Post
You have a right to your opinion, but what does this have to do with the F8X forum.
Haha, right over your head. Nothing, that was the point. Lups asked for informative without specifying what it should be informative about. I was just messing with her.
Appreciate 0
      11-25-2014, 08:36 PM   #83
SakhirM4
Major General
SakhirM4's Avatar
United_States
10783
Rep
8,852
Posts

Drives: '15 SO M4/'20 Z4 M40i
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Austin, TX

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2020 BMW Z4 M40i  [10.00]
2015 BMW M4  [8.76]
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiplee View Post
Haha, right over your head. Nothing, that was the point. Lups asked for informative without specifying what it should be informative about.
Not over my head at all - why do people always have to insult? I know what you were doing, but the subject detracted from the humor.
__________________
Tejas Chapter, BMW CCA, mem #23915, President 27 years, www.tejaschapter.org
Appreciate 0
      11-25-2014, 08:42 PM   #84
myzmak
Advocatus Douchebagus. Sex Marxist.
myzmak's Avatar
Canada
2413
Rep
3,415
Posts

Drives: Lucy.
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Canada

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2015 F80 M3  [10.00]
2013 MB E350 Wagon  [10.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lups View Post
God I hate this system so much! It's sucking the fun out of the forum
I appreciate that too....
__________________
Drivin' Lucy
Appreciate 1
      11-25-2014, 08:43 PM   #85
dmk08
Gone Fishin’
dmk08's Avatar
United_States
7315
Rep
12,125
Posts

Drives: Walks
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Atlanta

iTrader: (19)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lups View Post
Stop appreciating me, let's keep it even remotely realistic!

Orange car owners suck!
Dont be hating on orangies.
Appreciate 0
      11-25-2014, 08:45 PM   #86
myzmak
Advocatus Douchebagus. Sex Marxist.
myzmak's Avatar
Canada
2413
Rep
3,415
Posts

Drives: Lucy.
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Canada

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2015 F80 M3  [10.00]
2013 MB E350 Wagon  [10.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiplee View Post
It's informative you want? It's informative you shall receive. Ladies are always right.

It continues to be made apparent that too many people misunderstand what is meant by the term "theory" in science. So I thought I'd clarify. Nothing awarded the title theory in science, is just a theory in the everyday sense. Science establishes theories from hypotheses after rigorous analysis. To be clear, science is not able to establish, or even interested in establishing "facts", but theories come as close as science will ever get to being factual.

The proofs that do exist in science come from logically deduced arguments, not empirical ones. In other words, to be a "proof" in science, data sets must demonstrate that their supported proposition is true in all cases to which they apply, vice just all observed (empirical) cases, and there cannot be a single exception. In science we recognize that we have not observed, and could never observe, every instance of anything, so we don't use the word "fact". At least not in any formal or disciplined sense.

In the empirical world, pure truth simply cannot ever be reached. So in science, unproven propositions believed or strongly suspected to be true are called conjectures. And, as dear Dr. Gould said, outside of mathematics and logic, everything is conjecture.

Stephen Jay Gould also wrote, "The final proofs of logic and mathematics flow deductively from stated premises, and achieve certainty only because they are not about the empirical world." He recognized (and it is an axiom of science) that there can be no such proofs (no "FACTS") in the empirical world. This is not because nothing is true, but because there is no intellectually defensible mechanism for establishing any proposition as true "without even a single exception." To empirically establish such a quality, we would have to actually observe every single instance of the event in question. How wonderful it would be if we were actually able to do such a thing, but, sadly, we cannot.

Therefore, in the empirical world, where proof is forever foreclosed to us, we must depend on other tools for establishing confidence in our various conjectures. Those tools are evidence and reason. These tools allow us to reach conclusions with great confidence, but that confidence must always remain tentative and provisional.

Consider the example conjecture, "The sun rises in the east."

We have great confidence in the statement as a provisional truth. We have observed innumerable such events, and the sun has never disappointed us... so far. Each one of these observations is additional evidence that the sun rises in the east, and reason allows us to inductively gain great confidence that tomorrow it will do the same thing.

But, the sun doesn’t actually rise in the east at all. In fact, the sun's own motion has nothing to do with our experience of the sunrise. As we all know, it is the earth's rotation toward the east that creates the illusion of a rising sun. We now have better evidence and better reasoning that allows us to understand that the conjecture "the sun rises in the east" (considered "proved" by many for most of human history) is not actually true at all. And no matter how many times you wake me up, turn me to the east and point out that "the sun is rising in the east," you are still offering no proof. You are merely providing an additional piece of evidence for a conjecture that ultimately is false.

History is filled with similar examples of things that were considered true (and mistakenly considered "proven") that ultimately turned out to be false, so we’ve learned our lesson.

And it doesn't stop there.

Our current conjecture that the earth’s rotation toward the east creates the illusion of a rising sun is much better supported by both evidence and reason than the older conjecture that the sun rises in the east. We have great confidence that science is progressively and incrementally approaching truth... (just as it aims to do in all of its endeavors) And certainly in this example the step was a great one in that direction. But does that make our current understanding any more a "proof" than the older one? Absolutely not.

The earth rotates towards the east today, but this was not always so, and it will not always be so in the future. Let's just use the old colloquial "the sun rises in the east" for ease of understanding, but only as an idiom for the rest of this discussion.

We expect the sun to "rise in the east" tomorrow, just as it always has since we started watching it. But there will be a day when that is no longer the behavior the sun exhibits. It is almost certainly absurd to imagine the transition will happen in a single night, and the probability of that is vanishingly small. But it's not zero.

Thanks to our two tools, evidence and reason, we can have great confidence that many of our conjectures are probably 100% true. That confidence is necessarily so great that we lead our lives functionally behaving as though and understanding that they are. It would be futile to live our lives otherwise. And there is no need for anyone to embrace the absurdity that we do not know a lot of things that actually are true, just because we cannot prove them.

But that does not change the fundamental reality that everything we believe, no matter how well supported by evidence and reason, is still conjecture and never proved.

That's a long discussion leaving one major issue unanswered. Why does it matter?

It matters because debaters (usually creationists) use the false and impossible demand for nonexistent "proof" as permission to literally be stupid. If the only tools we really have are evidence and reason, and if the only way we can distinguish what is probably true from what is probably false is by the quantity and quality of those two tools, then the "fact" of the matter is that any honest ranking of our various "god conjectures" would place them all at the bottom of a broad spectrum that had the "theory" of evolution, and the "theory" of gravity, and the germ "theory" of disease, etc. near its top. And yet creationists use these words to argue for equal time for "creation science" in schools and text books. Words mean things, but sometimes they mean more than one thing. And to regard the theory of evolution as "just" a theory requires a gross misunderstanding of the nature of knowledge and of the science from which we have all benefitted.
You been booklearnin lots. We don't hold kindly to such roun' these here parts....
__________________
Drivin' Lucy
Appreciate 0
      11-25-2014, 08:51 PM   #87
chiplee
Captain
chiplee's Avatar
307
Rep
971
Posts

Drives: 2015 M3
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Ridgecrest, CA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SakhirM4 View Post
Not over my head at all - why do people always have to insult? I know what you were doing, but the subject detracted from the humor.
Uh, didn't mean to insult. Just saying you missed my main point, which was "informative you want, informative you'll get". Didn't actually expect anyone to read that whole post.
Appreciate 0
      11-25-2014, 09:10 PM   #88
Lups
...
Lups's Avatar
11820
Rep
15,400
Posts

Drives: I don't own a car.
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Lost as usual

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by chiplee View Post
It's informative you want? It's informative you shall receive. Ladies are always right.

It continues to be made apparent that too many people misunderstand what is meant by the term "theory" in science. So I thought I'd clarify. Nothing awarded the title theory in science, is just a theory in the everyday sense. Science establishes theories from hypotheses after rigorous analysis. To be clear, science is not able to establish, or even interested in establishing "facts", but theories come as close as science will ever get to being factual.

The proofs that do exist in science come from logically deduced arguments, not empirical ones. In other words, to be a "proof" in science, data sets must demonstrate that their supported proposition is true in all cases to which they apply, vice just all observed (empirical) cases, and there cannot be a single exception. In science we recognize that we have not observed, and could never observe, every instance of anything, so we don't use the word "fact". At least not in any formal or disciplined sense.

In the empirical world, pure truth simply cannot ever be reached. So in science, unproven propositions believed or strongly suspected to be true are called conjectures. And, as dear Dr. Gould said, outside of mathematics and logic, everything is conjecture.

Stephen Jay Gould also wrote, "The final proofs of logic and mathematics flow deductively from stated premises, and achieve certainty only because they are not about the empirical world." He recognized (and it is an axiom of science) that there can be no such proofs (no "FACTS") in the empirical world. This is not because nothing is true, but because there is no intellectually defensible mechanism for establishing any proposition as true "without even a single exception." To empirically establish such a quality, we would have to actually observe every single instance of the event in question. How wonderful it would be if we were actually able to do such a thing, but, sadly, we cannot.

Therefore, in the empirical world, where proof is forever foreclosed to us, we must depend on other tools for establishing confidence in our various conjectures. Those tools are evidence and reason. These tools allow us to reach conclusions with great confidence, but that confidence must always remain tentative and provisional.

Consider the example conjecture, "The sun rises in the east."

We have great confidence in the statement as a provisional truth. We have observed innumerable such events, and the sun has never disappointed us... so far. Each one of these observations is additional evidence that the sun rises in the east, and reason allows us to inductively gain great confidence that tomorrow it will do the same thing.

But, the sun doesn’t actually rise in the east at all. In fact, the sun's own motion has nothing to do with our experience of the sunrise. As we all know, it is the earth's rotation toward the east that creates the illusion of a rising sun. We now have better evidence and better reasoning that allows us to understand that the conjecture "the sun rises in the east" (considered "proved" by many for most of human history) is not actually true at all. And no matter how many times you wake me up, turn me to the east and point out that "the sun is rising in the east," you are still offering no proof. You are merely providing an additional piece of evidence for a conjecture that ultimately is false.

History is filled with similar examples of things that were considered true (and mistakenly considered "proven") that ultimately turned out to be false, so we’ve learned our lesson.

And it doesn't stop there.

Our current conjecture that the earth’s rotation toward the east creates the illusion of a rising sun is much better supported by both evidence and reason than the older conjecture that the sun rises in the east. We have great confidence that science is progressively and incrementally approaching truth... (just as it aims to do in all of its endeavors) And certainly in this example the step was a great one in that direction. But does that make our current understanding any more a "proof" than the older one? Absolutely not.

The earth rotates towards the east today, but this was not always so, and it will not always be so in the future. Let's just use the old colloquial "the sun rises in the east" for ease of understanding, but only as an idiom for the rest of this discussion.

We expect the sun to "rise in the east" tomorrow, just as it always has since we started watching it. But there will be a day when that is no longer the behavior the sun exhibits. It is almost certainly absurd to imagine the transition will happen in a single night, and the probability of that is vanishingly small. But it's not zero.

Thanks to our two tools, evidence and reason, we can have great confidence that many of our conjectures are probably 100% true. That confidence is necessarily so great that we lead our lives functionally behaving as though and understanding that they are. It would be futile to live our lives otherwise. And there is no need for anyone to embrace the absurdity that we do not know a lot of things that actually are true, just because we cannot prove them.

But that does not change the fundamental reality that everything we believe, no matter how well supported by evidence and reason, is still conjecture and never proved.

That's a long discussion leaving one major issue unanswered. Why does it matter?

It matters because debaters (usually creationists) use the false and impossible demand for nonexistent "proof" as permission to literally be stupid. If the only tools we really have are evidence and reason, and if the only way we can distinguish what is probably true from what is probably false is by the quantity and quality of those two tools, then the "fact" of the matter is that any honest ranking of our various "god conjectures" would place them all at the bottom of a broad spectrum that had the "theory" of evolution, and the "theory" of gravity, and the germ "theory" of disease, etc. near its top. And yet creationists use these words to argue for equal time for "creation science" in schools and text books. Words mean things, but sometimes they mean more than one thing. And to regard the theory of evolution as "just" a theory requires a gross misunderstanding of the nature of knowledge and of the science from which we have all benefitted.
Lol you got me good! I've been suspecting you indeed have a sense of humor. This did not convince me otherwise.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joekerr View Post
You're still a little new here, so I'll let you in on a little secret. Whenever Lups types gibberish, this is an opportunity for you to imagine it to be whatever you'd like it to be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delta0311 View Post
How would you know this? Did mommy catch you jerking off to some Big Foot porn ?
Appreciate 0
Closed Thread

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:09 AM.




5post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST