[krell]

Hi,

I'm new to this forum, and this is my first post.

I'm in the market for a new car to replace my Mercedes S320 and I was considering the new Mercedes E Class and the F10 5 series.

I first test drove an F10 530d, and was very impressed. It was very quick, and incredibly refined. The interior was excellent too. The only dissapoining aspect of the car was that the ride was far from perfect. The suspension thudded over potholes and did not deal with "minor" road imperfections very well. However, it was fine on the smoother motorway roads. The car was fitted with 19" wheels, and did not have adaptive drive fitted.

As a side note, I drove a Mercedes E350 CDI later on the same day and it was eclipsed by the 530d in my opinion. I didn't return the dealer's calls

When I priced up an F10 530d with the options I wanted (including adaptive drive at £2,200 - because almost all the motoring press insist it's a must for decent ride quality) the grand total was nearly £50,000. Ouch!

Then I read the reviews of the 520d and took one out for a test drive yesterday. The most noticable thing when I first started the car was that you immediately know its a diesel - whereas the 530d was significantly quieter. However, once it's on the move it's very quiet and refined. And it was not left wanting for power at all. It was responsive and felt like it was packing more than 4 cylinders. I also noticed that once the car had warmed up it was much quieter at idle. In fact, you could not tell it was a diesel.

The 520d was fitted with 19" wheels and variable damper control (VDC). It was obvious that this car rode significantly better than the 530d I drove earlier. It soaked up the road imperfection so much better.

The vast majority of the driving I do is on local roads so I can't justify the near £9000 premium for a 530d - or a 525d for that matter. Yes, I lose out on power I don't need and a little refinement, but I save money I can put towards options and get much better fuel economy and lower tax.

Has anyone got any thoughts on the F10 with or without adaptive drive / variable damper control? What is the ride like with 18" wheels without the chasis aids? I hear the suspension was tuned with 18" wheels, so the ride should be better.

[pmw103]

Hi Krell,
Thanks for this, very interesting comparison.

I found the standard ride fine, but coming from a Merc S class perhaps the differences are more obvious!

I agree with you the 520d is good value, but is a 520 the same as 525d and 530d, apart from the Engine, USB Interface, Ambient Lighting, Extended aircon, and in the case of a 530d metallic paint.

When Dad got his first 5 series back in 1996 a E39 528i he had issues with the tracking getting knocked out of alignment on rough roads, just normal driving no significant event.

The mechanic told him something interesting, he said BMW put lower grade components in the lower models to save cost. He said if dad had a 535i etc he would not have had the same issue as the components used on the 535 were more durable. I have no idea if that's true, or even if its true now.

520d SE £28,045
525d SE £33,100
530d SE £37,175
535d SE £42,095

On paper at least the only difference apart from the engine between the 525 and the 530 is metallic paint.

Is the extra 5055 pounds only going on the engine, or are other not so obvious components being upgraded ?

Good luck with your deliberations!
Cheers
Paul

[bimmernic]

Hi Krell, here's part of what I wrote in another forum (http://forums.5series.net/topic/9593...entry1219064):

=====
Hi all

Collected my car last Saturday. 523 but added the Sports Auto Transmission (2TB), Sports leather steering wheel/paddles (255), Hi Fi Professional (677) and the M-Sport suspension (677). Drove to Hurry Tyres from PML Bukit Timah immediately thereafter and swapped the standard 17" RFTs for 18" 328 wheels with GY F1 Assymetric non-RFTs. LTA required the car to be homologated since the M-Sport suspension is not on any of the standard trims from PML.

Have not had a chance to really stretch the car but brief impressions follow.

At the risk of hyperbole, the M-Sport suspension transforms the car . There is minimal body roll (but enough to inform you that you are cornering fast) and pitch and roll is non-existent. The ride is firm but still comfortable, with road imperfections occasionally heard rather than felt. Initially, this felt weird when I was trying out that section of Alexendra Road (lanes 1 & 2) between River Valley Road and Tanglin Road, with its raised manhole covers, uneven road surface and patches. When I tested PML's 523 (17" wheels) and 535 (18" wheels) on the standard suspension, the cars would crash and thump quite noticeably on bumps and ruts - not quite what I was expecting from a BMW. The springs on the standard suspension appear to be too soft given the weight of the car. Also, when making the U-turn at the Holiday Inn Atrium junction, there was, surprisingly, lots of body roll on both test cars.

Happily, these issues appear to have been eliminated with the M-Sport suspension. Whether the 18" non-RFTs played a key part in the improvement, I can't tell, but they would not have had an impact on the body roll. However, the 17" RFTs on my car felt very comfortable when I drove it to Hurry Tyre.

For me, the M-Sport suspension really adds to the sporty driving experience and is, perhaps, a more cost effective option than dynamic damping control. While I understand that the M-Sport is tuned to be in between the Normal and Sports setting of the dynamic damping control, the key here may be the thicker anti-roll bars (and possibly higher spec bushings).

The difference between the standard and M-Sport suspension mirrors my experience when I tested the 3-series coupes (325 on 17" wheels and standard suspension and 335 on 18" wheels) on Rifle Range Road, with the standard suspension being somewhat soft and wallowy with noticeable body roll and the M-sport suspension being more firm with less roll and much better body control.

As for the steering, the 2TB option does appear to be beneficial to the weight and feel of the car. When I tested the standard steering on PML's 523 (base), it felt disconnected, very light and lacking in feel. For lack of a better word, it felt artificial. The steering really didn't inspire confidence. Perhaps it was due to the servotronic kicking in at low speeds but the steering on my car on its Normal setting is heavier even at parking speeds. The steering on the 535 was much better, even on the Normal setting. There does not appear to be any information on whether the steering on the Normal setting on the 2TB is the same as the standard steering but it certainly feels different, and better. Having said that, it could also be due to difference in the wheel sizes (17" vs 18").

Its surprising how a 2.5L, 204Bhp/250Nm engine can hustle the car along but it really needs revs to get up to speed. There is some lag in the throttle response and nothing much happens below about 2,000 rpm :sleep: . Once you get into the powerband, its quite easy to exceed the speed limit since the sensation of speed is not quite apparent, in a good way, due to the refined way that it handles speed. There is little road noise and, due to the high gearing, engine noise. My passengers perceive the speed to be lower than it is . Will probably chip up the engine at some stage, if only to get rid of the lag in throttle response and to increase the low end torque.

====

Also, if by your user name, you are a fan of a certain Mr D'A..., then the upgrade to the Hi Fi Professional would be a nice to have - it is surprisingly quite decent.

[rsyed]

Hey Krell,

just a few thoughts on my side
1) the cheapest (and in my opinion the most effective) way to improve the suspension of the f10 is to ditch the runflat tires and get normal tires. This is something lots of e60 owners have been doing and are more than happy with the result.
2) Adaptive Drive = Dynamic damping control + dynamic drive

dynamic dampling control: there are sensors on each suspension that taps the movement 400 times every second. The electronic is so fast that if your front wheel goes over a pothole, the rear wheel can adjust the shock absorber of the rear wheel just that you feel as little of the pothole as possible. Obvoiusly the softer the adjustment (comfort mode) the less fun you have while cornering. I assume in sports mode, the shock absorbers make the drive stiffer and harder giving you the feeling you have with a sports suspension such as the m-suspension.

Dynamic drive: same as it was with the e60. the car is stabilized when cornering so that you actively counteract body roll - basically, it avoids the car tilting to one one while cornering.

The reason why you want to take the adaptive drive is for comfort reasons - we are talking about the dynamic damping control part of the adaptive drive. This is basicaly what you get with teh VDC. So the advantage of taking a 520d is that you are not forced to take the entire adaptive drive package but take the VDC which is not cheaper but also what you are looking for.

Some food for thought: why not take the 525d with VDC, active steering and sport-automatic? Have the best of both worlds - should be about 4-5k cheaper than the 530d.

[Jon D]

Originally Posted by rsyed

Hey Krell,

just a few thoughts on my side
1) the cheapest (and in my opinion the most effective) way to improve the suspension of the f10 is to ditch the runflat tires and get normal tires. This is something lots of e60 owners have been doing and are more than happy with the result.
2) Adaptive Drive = Dynamic damping control + dynamic drive

dynamic dampling control: there are sensors on each suspension that taps the movement 400 times every second. The electronic is so fast that if your front wheel goes over a pothole, the rear wheel can adjust the shock absorber of the rear wheel just that you feel as little of the pothole as possible. Obvoiusly the softer the adjustment (comfort mode) the less fun you have while cornering. I assume in sports mode, the shock absorbers make the drive stiffer and harder giving you the feeling you have with a sports suspension such as the m-suspension.

Dynamic drive: same as it was with the e60. the car is stabilized when cornering so that you actively counteract body roll - basically, it avoids the car tilting to one one while cornering.

The reason why you want to take the adaptive drive is for comfort reasons - we are talking about the dynamic damping control part of the adaptive drive. This is basicaly what you get with teh VDC. So the advantage of taking a 520d is that you are not forced to take the entire adaptive drive package but take the VDC which is not cheaper but also what you are looking for.

Some food for thought: why not take the 525d with VDC, active steering and sport-automatic? Have the best of both worlds - should be about 4-5k cheaper than the 530d.

Just a bit confused here; the following quote is from your earlier reply to my 535d spec:-

"I really don't want to talk you into things but IMHO, drop the adaptive drive for th m-sport suspension, put a tick next to the active steering and buy yourself some non-rft tires. You will love it!!"

So how do you feel about Adaptive Drive today?

[rsyed]

Originally Posted by Jon D

Just a bit confused here; the following quote is from your earlier reply to my 535d spec:-

"I really don't want to talk you into things but IMHO, drop the adaptive drive for th m-sport suspension, put a tick next to the active steering and buy yourself some non-rft tires. You will love it!!"

So how do you feel about Adaptive Drive today?

I am still on for that and have also gone for the path of the m-sport suspension with non-rft tires.

The reason why i recommended krell to take the VDC was because he clearly seems to be sold on the adaptive drive. And since he wanted to save some money, the VDC is the option that would make most sense for him since dynnamic drive is not what he seems to appreciate in the adaptive drive package.

but like i said earlier, I personally would/am going for the m-sport suspension with the non-rft tires.

ps. when i wrote "best of both worlds", i was referring to the 6 cylinder and his bank account

[krell]

Thanks for the info, bimmernic.

I haven't considered the M-Sport suspension up to this point because I thought it would make the ride even harsher than the standard suspension. Your post has got me thinking because I would like to go for 19" wheels but I baulked at the £1800 to £2200 asking price. I was therefore going to get the style 328 wheels at £665. However, when you consider that the M-Sport package includes 19" wheels and other goodies such as sports seats and the body kit for £3000 it sounds like a good option. I can also forgo the variable damper control, which is another £965 saving.

Of course, I'll need to drive an M-Sport car without any chasis or suspension aids first. Finding such a car will be a problem. The larger problem is that discerning customers need to know what they're doing and choose the tyres, suspension and chasis aids carefully to avoid owning a car that they dislike for one reason or another. I wish the car rode "properly" in it's standard guise and even better with additional aids to take away all the complications!

And yes, I'm a big fan of Mr D'Agostino :-) I'd love the professional hifi but I'll have to convince my resident accountant (my wife) first :-)

[bm323]

VDC is an option for the 520d and 525d, but not adaptive drive.

Originally Posted by krell

Hi,
The suspension thudded over potholes and did not deal with "minor" road imperfections very well. However, it was fine on the smoother motorway roads. The car was fitted with 19" wheels, and did not have adaptive drive fitted...

The 520d was fitted with 19" wheels and variable damper control (VDC). It was obvious that this car rode significantly better than the 530d I drove earlier. It soaked up the road imperfection so much better.

Based on your preference, it would appear that VDC suits you but I would be interested to hear your views on the F10 with M sport suspension compared to VDC.

Originally Posted by krell

Of course, I'll need to drive an M-Sport car without any chasis or suspension aids first.

A test F10 with M sport suspension will not have chassis or suspension aid as they are incompatible.

[pitshanger]

Originally Posted by krell

However, when you consider that the M-Sport package includes 19" wheels and other goodies such as sports seats and the body kit for £3000 it sounds like a good option.

The MSport package comes with 18" wheels in UK, the 19s are additional £1185. Having driven an M suspension with first generation run-flats for the last 3 years, I am not taking the risk to order the 19s this time !

[krell]

Originally Posted by rsyed

Hey Krell,

just a few thoughts on my side
1) the cheapest (and in my opinion the most effective) way to improve the suspension of the f10 is to ditch the runflat tires and get normal tires. This is something lots of e60 owners have been doing and are more than happy with the result.
2) Adaptive Drive = Dynamic damping control + dynamic drive

dynamic dampling control: there are sensors on each suspension that taps the movement 400 times every second. The electronic is so fast that if your front wheel goes over a pothole, the rear wheel can adjust the shock absorber of the rear wheel just that you feel as little of the pothole as possible. Obvoiusly the softer the adjustment (comfort mode) the less fun you have while cornering. I assume in sports mode, the shock absorbers make the drive stiffer and harder giving you the feeling you have with a sports suspension such as the m-suspension.

Dynamic drive: same as it was with the e60. the car is stabilized when cornering so that you actively counteract body roll - basically, it avoids the car tilting to one one while cornering.

The reason why you want to take the adaptive drive is for comfort reasons - we are talking about the dynamic damping control part of the adaptive drive. This is basicaly what you get with teh VDC. So the advantage of taking a 520d is that you are not forced to take the entire adaptive drive package but take the VDC which is not cheaper but also what you are looking for.

Some food for thought: why not take the 525d with VDC, active steering and sport-automatic? Have the best of both worlds - should be about 4-5k cheaper than the 530d.

Getting non-run flat tyres is certainly an attractive option - but I'm concerned about being stranded in the middle of nowhere with a car full of kids and no spare tyre.

I thought dynamic drive sharpened / softened the throttle response depending on the setting? The active roll bars that help the car to corner more flat is part of the adaptive drive package, which you can't specify with the 520d.

I did think about getting the 525d, but it's £4000+ more than the 520d, with only slightly better performance. And it has the same (heavier) fuel consumption as the 530d - yet without the power and torque. I would rather stretch to the 530d to get the real deal - but I would have to trim down my option list heavily

[bm323]

Originally Posted by krell

I thought dynamic drive sharpened / softened the throttle response depending on the setting?

VDC makes the ride less harsh due to the dynamic dampers.

If you are seeking throttle response, go for the sport transmission with the 2TB switch.

Check out http://f10.5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=416668

[rsyed]

Originally Posted by pitshanger

The MSport package comes with 18" wheels in UK, the 19s are additional £1185. Having driven an M suspension with first generation run-flats for the last 3 years, I am not taking the risk to order the 19s this time !

the 19" on the f10 is equivalent to 18" on the e60 due to increased height on the side wall on the f10.

[rsyed]

Originally Posted by krell

Getting non-run flat tyres is certainly an attractive option - but I'm concerned about being stranded in the middle of nowhere with a car full of kids and no spare tyre.

I thought dynamic drive sharpened / softened the throttle response depending on the setting? The active roll bars that help the car to corner more flat is part of the adaptive drive package, which you can't specify with the 520d.

I did think about getting the 525d, but it's £4000+ more than the 520d, with only slightly better performance. And it has the same (heavier) fuel consumption as the 530d - yet without the power and torque. I would rather stretch to the 530d to get the real deal - but I would have to trim down my option list heavily

You could carry a mobility kit from bmw at the back of your car. This is teh path I am taking.


I am not sure how adaptive drive may change throttle or steering response. I only thought that you have this if you took the sport automatic and/or active steering: both independant of the adaptive drive.

i fully get your point. I was torn between the 525d and the 530d (after deciding between the 520d and 535d). took the 530d at the end because the 4k on top of the 520d did not justify the performance of the 525d but the 4k on top of the 525d for the 530d did justify the performance numbers.

If you are taking the 520d, I do recommend testdriving it again and check out this phenomenon: cruise at about 35-40mph (revs below 1500) and then gently accelerate up to 65. This acceration will cause the engine to resonate/hum. if you can live with this humming/resonating noise then ok, if not, you have to take a 6 cylinder.

[gorban]

Originally Posted by rsyed

You could carry a mobility kit from bmw at the back of your car. This is teh path I am taking.


I am not sure how adaptive drive may change throttle or steering response. I only thought that you have this if you took the sport automatic and/or active steering: both independant of the adaptive drive.

i fully get your point. I was torn between the 525d and the 530d (after deciding between the 520d and 535d). took the 530d at the end because the 4k on top of the 520d did not justify the performance of the 525d but the 4k on top of the 525d for the 530d did justify the performance numbers.

If you are taking the 520d, I do recommend testdriving it again and check out this phenomenon: cruise at about 35-40mph (revs below 1500) and then gently accelerate up to 65. This acceration will cause the engine to resonate/hum. if you can live with this humming/resonating noise then ok, if not, you have to take a 6 cylinder.

Both VDC and Adaptive Drive includes Dynamic Driving Control which affects throttle and steering response.

Speaking of resonating noise, I've had a resonating noise in my E61 525d at 1800 rpms(100 km/h on 6th gear) for three years now and I have seen other posters discussing it. So we should really look for this in the 6 cylinder engines too.

[rsyed]

Originally Posted by gorban

Both VDC and Adaptive Drive includes Dynamic Driving Control which affects throttle and steering response.

Speaking of resonating noise, I've had a resonating noise in my E61 525d at 1800 rpms(100 km/h on 6th gear) for three years now and I have seen other posters discussing it. So we should really look for this in the 6 cylinder engines too.

Well the 520d has this resonating noise as of 1300 revs

check out www.e60.net, there is atleast one frustrating f10 520d owner in finnland; could also be of the weather up there

[Sonny520]

@rsyed: why would you cruise with a rev below 1500? I know it's a diesel but come on, When i drive with my 10 year old Mercedes 220 CDI I always keep the rev around 2000, no wonder you head a sound, it's the engine yelling: come on drive a little faster :-p

[rsyed]

@Sonny520 - have you test driven a f10 with an automatic tranny? as soon as you start cruising, the automatic shifts down and down and down and you end up driving around with around 1300-1400 revs. You see why the automatic is more economical than a manual tranny

[Sonny520]

Originally Posted by rsyed

@Sonny520 - have you test driven a f10 with an automatic tranny? as soon as you start cruising, the automatic shifts down and down and down and you end up driving around with around 1300-1400 revs. You see why the automatic is more economical than a manual tranny

Even if you drive with the sport automatic paddles? And if not, the car encourages you to drive faster that's BMW for you

[pitshanger]

Originally Posted by rsyed

the 19" on the f10 is equivalent to 18" on the e60 due to increased height on the side wall on the f10.

Thanks a lot, I hadn't noticed that before !

I guess it will be October before demonstrators are available in the UK so I'll stick with the standard 18s on my order. Should be a lot more forgiving than my existing ride (and maybe less prone to kerbing ?).

[blackberrycubed]

so what is the consensus? better to get sport + dynamic handling or sport plus Sport auto transmission? Lets say one did not want the 5 to handle like an M3, does the car drive and handle nicely without the dynamic package? Could one simply get the Sport auto tranny for the better steering feel and leave out dynamic handling?

[bm323]

Originally Posted by gorban

Both VDC and Adaptive Drive includes Dynamic Driving Control which affects throttle and steering response.

Why do you say so? Do you find post#1 in http://f10.5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=416668 incorrect?

[r3amir]

Originally Posted by blackberrycubed

so what is the consensus? better to get sport + dynamic handling or sport plus Sport auto transmission? Lets say one did not want the 5 to handle like an M3, does the car drive and handle nicely without the dynamic package? Could one simply get the Sport auto tranny for the better steering feel and leave out dynamic handling?

Even without dynamic handling package, the sports package handles very nicely. It is completely different from E90, but for the size of the car, handling is really good. I am happy without the DHP.