[RickFLM4]

Originally Posted by Tyga11

You're obviously being dramatic to try to prove your point. I doubt your big tech company is blindsiding people all of the time.

The discussion is not layoffs either - it's about firing people for performance, etc. I guarantee you that's not happening and you probably saw 1 or 2 people terminated and you're compounding that into a bigger thing than it is.

My two largest clients, both of which are large public companies, terminate people for performance every year at all levels in the organization. Terminated employees sign an agreement when leaving to get a severance package. If they don't sign, they can go hire a lawyer if they so choose but get zero severance. The lawyer will inevitably try to settle for more than the severance would have been, but that's the only real risk - pay a little more. Most people in corporate America take the deal and move on to the next gig.

You can absolutely fire people when they aren't performing. There is just a cost to do it. But there is also a cost of letting slugs stick around and piss off all the good workers who see them get away with shit.

[omasou]

At will is the easiest way to let someone go, whether layoff or termination.

The other easy one is..."your position has been eliminated"

[Tyga11]

Originally Posted by beachBmmr

Whatever...you can live in your false reality, but you are making a lot of incorrect assumptions about how the world works and obviously never read an at-will employment agreement or have actual experience in this domain.

I work in an enormous commercial sales business. When you get terminated, there is no document that says this is why you're being fired.

Its when you are being fired FOR CAUSE that you are given documentation why. That is because there is liability that the company needs to expropriate to you in case another party sues them.
I.e. harassment or illegal activity. It how they cover THEIR ass against your bad behavoir.

There's a reason why virtually every Fortune 1000 company has performance reviews (these have changed within the past 5 years), coaching plans, etc. It's to cover their behind even in at-will states.

This applies for sales positions also by the way. So your co-workers are getting canned willy nilly - trust me on that.

[Tyga11]

Originally Posted by RickFLM4

My two largest clients, both of which are large public companies, terminate people for performance every year at all levels in the organization. Terminated employees sign an agreement when leaving to get a severance package. If they don't sign, they can go hire a lawyer if they so choose but get zero severance. The lawyer will inevitably try to settle for more than the severance would have been, but that's the only real risk - pay a little more. Most people in corporate America take the deal and move on to the next gig.

You can absolutely fire people when they aren't performing. There is just a cost to do it. But there is also a cost of letting slugs stick around and piss off all the good workers who see them get away with shit.

You have to put them on a performance plan, etc. You can't just fire someone for performance without HR taking the appropriate steps ahead of time...

[Mason Hatcher]

Originally Posted by Tommy-G

Who has some entertaining stories of being fired, or "your friend" being fired....
Being let go from a job is never a fun thing but most of the time your next step ends up better anyway....Entertain me

Never been fired or asked to resign. Never been laid off.

[Mason Hatcher]

Originally Posted by Tyga11

It's almost impossible to fire an employee now (if you are in a professional job)

You have to either do something immoral or illegal. For instance, lying about a corporate credit transaction.

Otherwise - there is too much risk with HR to fire anyone.

"Too much risk with HR"? How is that a risk? is HR going to take away your birthday? Perhaps YOUR organization sits around afraid of their employees, but that is the minority.

[Mason Hatcher]

Originally Posted by Tyga11

This must have happened years ago - wouldn't fly in today's day and age.

Again, perhaps where YOU work.

[Mason Hatcher]

Originally Posted by Tyga11

You can't just fire people without putting them on probation, etc. And even if so, there has to be a material reason why.

I'm talking about very large corporations...not mom & pop shops.

Wrongo, bucko. No laws require that shit

[Mason Hatcher]

Originally Posted by Tyga11

You're obviously being dramatic to try to prove your point. I doubt your big tech company is blindsiding people all of the time.

The discussion is not layoffs either - it's about firing people for performance, etc. I guarantee you that's not happening and you probably saw 1 or 2 people terminated and you're compounding that into a bigger thing than it is.

You're the kind of guy who would argue with a street sign and then take the wrong road.

[Captain Blood]

This is for those in the restaurant business…..
I've never understood how someone can go back into an office and take 20, 30,or 40 minutes to fire someone. My record is 15 seconds. I'd written a guy up a couple times for being late (and I wouldn't do this to someone for being one or two minutes late, it's like being 15 or 20 minutes late), he was late again, he walked in the door, I sat him down at the nearest table, I said we've talked about this before, you've been written up a couple times, we're gonna have to let you go. And I escorted him out.

[RickFLM4]

Originally Posted by Tyga11

You have to put them on a performance plan, etc. You can't just fire someone for performance without HR taking the appropriate steps ahead of time...

Simply not true. Some are if they seem worth working with to retain. Some people are fired within months of arriving. Some are too high in the organization to put on a performance plan. They get paid to leave peacefully or get nothing if they prefer.

What do you think happens if someone is fired without going on a performance plan? They see a lawyer? Ok.

These are non-unionized employees. Maybe you are thinking of collective bargaining agreements that have different rules of engagement,

[RickFLM4]

Originally Posted by Tyga11

There's a reason why virtually every Fortune 1000 company has performance reviews (these have changed within the past 5 years), coaching plans, etc. It's to cover their behind even in at-will states.

This applies for sales positions also by the way. So your co-workers are getting canned willy nilly - trust me on that.

Performance reviews should be designed to maximize performance - positive impact process. If a company has structured performance reviews solely or primarily as a risk management tool in case they want to fire someone, the Board needs to fire the CEO.

[Tyga11]

Originally Posted by RickFLM4

Simply not true. Some are if they seem worth working with to retain. Some people are fired within months of arriving. Some are too high in the organization to put on a performance plan. They get paid to leave peacefully or get nothing if they prefer.

What do you think happens if someone is fired without going on a performance plan? They see a lawyer? Ok.

These are non-unionized employees. Maybe you are thinking of collective bargaining agreements that have different rules of engagement,

I think we’re talking about two different things - you’re talking about layoffs and I’m talking about firing a random employee out of the blue without HR / the manager providing documentation which led up to the following. It just doesn’t happen out of the blue with professional companies anymore.

Anyways - I’m down to agree to disagree if that works for you

[RickFLM4]

Originally Posted by Tyga11

I think we’re talking about two different things - you’re talking about layoffs and I’m talking about firing a random employee out of the blue without HR / the manager providing documentation which led up to the following. It just doesn’t happen out of the blue with professional companies anymore.

Anyways - I’m down to agree to disagree if that works for you

I am talking about performance related terminations - firings. But yeah let’s agree to disagree.

[Tommy-G]

Originally Posted by dangerus_car

fired or laid off?

Fired

Originally Posted by Tyga11

It's almost impossible to fire an employee now (if you are in a professional job)

You have to either do something immoral or illegal. For instance, lying about a corporate credit transaction.

Otherwise - there is too much risk with HR to fire anyone.

I get exactly what you're saying but its actually true while completely the opposite at the same time. "At will" states you can fire someone for ANY reason except discrimination etc....I know exactly where you're coming from but as long as the employer does not implicate themself in discrimination you can just tell them "Mr Tyga, our company goals are not aligned with yours so we are going to part ways"

[Mandi90TT]

Originally Posted by Tyga11

You can't just fire people without putting them on probation, etc. And even if so, there has to be a material reason why.

I'm talking about very large corporations...not mom & pop shops.

I worked for Deloitte at one point. Can't say that was not a large corporation. Was pretty easy to fire people.

[Tommy-G]

I have a few to share:
-A very well know automotive paint company would call an employee and tell them they are having an impromptu meeting at XYZ airport near there home and to bring their laptop, drive to the airport and meet at XYZ time. They would then let the person go and give them a bus/train/plane ticket where they need to go after collecting their company car, laptop and any other company belongings

-I had a boss who thought he was king swinging d!ck. He caught wind of an employee talking to other shops about jobs to test the water for what he could be getting paid around town. He called the employee in to my office and asked "So, Wilbur I heard you were looking around for other jobs" Well, yes....King immediately interupted and said "Well, we're going to let you take one of those"

-I was fired in 2007 from a BMW dealer. Parents retired and children took over. They pulled all the managers in who had been with the company over 10 years. We all thought we were getting watches or a nice dinner, instead they said "You all are making too much money and we are letting you go to cut costs"
Life goes on but at 27 yrs old I thought life was over

[andrewmr]

Originally Posted by Tyga11

You can't just fire people without putting them on probation, etc. And even if so, there has to be a material reason why.

I'm talking about very large corporations...not mom & pop shops.

We fire people all the time.... putting poop in your neighbors trashcan is a fireable offense.

[RickFLM4]

When I was running a department at a company many years (20+) back, there was a guy who worked with his door closed a lot. One evening a girl in the department knocked on his door and after a while he answered with no shoes on, which she reported. When I say "reported" I mean she gossiped to everyone about it.

I checked his office and computer with someone else when he was out of the office shortly thereafter. We found about 6,000 porn images on a company PC. Some were uh special categories. We wondered if he was running a website or something but this was before high speed internet was widely available. Then we found some lotion and ran out of the office.

I had HR fire him because I knew I couldn't look at him without laughing in his face. I actually felt bad because he was married with small kids and moved across the country for the job. But c'mon man you can't do that shit at work. On top of it, he wasn't very good at his job, perhaps because he was addicted to porn. The crazy fuck called me for a reference a few months later. I had to tell him he should really leave us off his resume.

[cmyx6go]

Other than my union employees (truck drivers) I can fire anyone I want, any time I want. Not sure what the definition is of mom and pop vs large Corps. 5 employees? 50? 100? 300? I have a few hundred very diverse work force. Old, young, racially diverse, and different sexual orientation. HR warnings and write ups are CYA. I don’t fire people on the basis of discrimination. I fire people for not doing their job. Unfortunately, if I want to fire an employee who falls onto a protected class, I have to cover my ass. Because THEY will look to exploit their status, not because their status is the reason for them being fired. They aren’t cutting it.

Personally, I have never been fired, laid off or quit a job in some over the top way. I never burned bridges.

[Tyga11]

Originally Posted by cmyx6go

Other than my union employees (truck drivers) I can fire anyone I want, any time I want. Not sure what the definition is of mom and pop vs large Corps. 5 employees? 50? 100? 300? I have a few hundred very diverse work force. Old, young, racially diverse, and different sexual orientation. HR warnings and write ups are CYA. I don’t fire people on the basis of discrimination. I fire people for not doing their job. Unfortunately, if I want to fire an employee who falls onto a protected class, I have to cover my ass. Because THEY will look to exploit their status, not because their status is the reason for them being fired. They aren’t cutting it.

Personally, I have never been fired, laid off or quit a job in some over the top way. I never burned bridges.

I'm talking about Fortune 1000 companies. They do not just fire employees 'on the spot' or without warning. There is always a course of action, so to speak, whether that's probation, etc.

This isn't directed at you but I'll ask it rhetorically - why do you think companies have performance reviews?

[cmyx6go]

We do reviews to prop people up. This is good. This needs improvement. It ties to raises. People want and should receive performance feedback