[labenzm5]

So I hated my run flats, I switched them out when it was time.... great move.

My winter set up is currently on the car. My 15 and a half year old son was driving up to a ski vacation with my wife on Christmas Day. They got the tire warning light and soon they were down to 1 psi. I told them to just keep driving, I drove out to meet up with them. Ultimately we drove around 40 miles on zero psi, left the car in Erie PA and had tires overnighted in from tire rack.

The run flats saved my ass.

[Bbb34]

Great that this worked out for you, good to hear that. (I once have driven 100 km on runflat too - during first few months of ownership before I took them off my vehicle).

Different people will have different opinion on this. Mine is, runflats are just stupid and we're all been "forced" into putting up with this nonsense by various manufacturers. In the name of what, safety (where really it's cost cutting and easier design and alleged weight saving). They are more expensive, don't last as long and don't handle quite as well as regular tires, and may, just may save you in certain situations, though it's impossible to be certain it will not give up on your and end up wrecking your rim, or worse.

You know what else would've saved you?
Having a spare in the trunk, and tools to change it. Aside from dangerously fast traffic on busy highways, no situation is difficult enough to change your own tire.

It takes about 30 min to change the tire on most vehicles, and get on with your life, and you can just as well overnight another one from Tirerack and change it back (though cheaper and better handling one than most runflat tires).


Just my $0.02 on runflats, like I said, not everyone will agree, some like and appreciate them, some don't.

[Cvx5832]

Glad they came in handy. I personally hate them however. I liken it to wearing a cocktail dress and heels 24/7 for that one time a year (or maybe never) that you’ll actually need it. And be murderously uncomfortable the whole time you’re waiting.

Dumped ‘em on the E90, dumped ‘em on the F10. I actually rode with them for a while since I got the car with new tires but it was hallelujah when they finally wore out and gave way for the DWS06’s I went with. The 535 is now a total dreamboat of a ride, even with the m-sport suspension.

[Encendido3]

Glad the runflats worked for you in the pinch.

Is it really that night a day between runflats and regular tires? I really couldn't see what the issue was with the run flats but then again I was coming from an older Honda Civic to my newer 535 so not really apples to apples. Who actually carries a spare with them in their 535?

[labenzm5]

I run the firestone fire hawk 500's in the summer. Non run flat summer only tires.
For my winter set up run flats from now on...

I will look into a spare kit for the summer....

[ezaircon4jc]

Originally Posted by Bbb34

You know what else would've saved you?
Having a spare in the trunk, and tools to change it. Aside from dangerously fast traffic on busy highways, no situation is difficult enough to change your own tire.

It takes about 30 min to change the tire on most vehicles, and get on with your life, and you can just as well overnight another one from Tirerack and change it back (though cheaper and better handling one than most runflat tires)...

A good many of us can't afford to lose the trunk space a spare requires. Trust me, there are many roads and freeways here where changing a tire can (and has) get someone killed.

[Bbb34]

Originally Posted by ezaircon4jc

A good many of us can't afford to lose the trunk space a spare requires. Trust me, there are many roads and freeways here where changing a tire can (and has) get someone killed.

I cannot either. And yes, I agree, changing tire on the side of the road can be dangerous, no doubt about it, but, it can also be perfectly safe in most situations.

I travel with a kit (and my fingers crossed), and while I like everything about this vehicle, having no spare is one thing I absolutely hate.

My personal opinion is that designing vehicles with no spare tire is stupid.
As usual this "design" has nothing to do with what customer wanted, but is done mostly to improve the "bottom line" and keep shareholders happy. The cost is as usual passed to the customer (limited choice of tires that are more expensive, don't last as long and potential road assistance/towing fees).

Another big company that gets away with "my way or the highway" designs like these is Apple for example. We like BMW, so we bought into this nonsense, but I'd rather have a "traditional" properly designed space for spare, tools and a jack in my car.

[ezaircon4jc]

Originally Posted by Bbb34

...
My personal opinion is that designing vehicles with no spare tire is stupid.
As usual this "design" has nothing to do with what customer wanted, but is done mostly to improve the "bottom line" and keep shareholders happy. The cost is as usual passed to the customer (limited choice of tires that are more expensive, don't last as long and potential road assistance/towing fees).....

More to save weight (grams count) and meet CAFE than anything else.

[spielnicht]

Hate is a strong word. I personally prefer abhor when when it comes to run-flats, a much stronger word to describe my feelings toward them.

My biggest issue with run-flats is that no shop (or BMW dealer) would agree to patch them when punctured by a nail or screw. I just literally noticed a big a** screw in my rear right tire, so that’s my 3rd relatively newish tire with ~90% thread in 12 months needing to be replaced. Do the math, I’m out $900. Urgh.

[Bbb34]

Originally Posted by ezaircon4jc

More to save weight (grams count) and meet CAFE than anything else.

That's BMW official line, sales pitch if you will. Sorry but I'm just not buying that one, I'm highly skeptical this is "weight saving" driven. 40-50 lbs less might give you marginally better fuel economy, but not sure exactly how much. You get slightly heavier 4 tires (run flats), but no spare, even a smaller "doughnut", so the truth is likely closer to 25-40 lbs. of total difference.

To be fair, I'm not 100% up to date, I'm not sure what they do right now, but for the longest time they did not use run flat tires on their M models, which is where weight savings would play significantly bigger role than on 4K lbs. family sedans like 3 and 5 series.

Penalty you pay handling wise is whole another story, but again, that's a matter of personal preference.

[r2dmax]

I'm with everyone else on not liking run flats. I will say the concept is cool, but the instability and rough ride over bumps isn't worth the difference. I removed my M SPort wheels and went with non-run flats one my flow forged wheels. It actually rides better and (per my butt-dyno) feels more responsive to braking and accelleration.

[ezaircon4jc]

Originally Posted by Bbb34

That's BMW official line, sales pitch if you will. Sorry but I'm just not buying that one, I'm highly skeptical this is "weight saving" driven. 40-50 lbs less might give you marginally better fuel economy, but not sure exactly how much. You get slightly heavier 4 tires (run flats), but no spare, even a smaller "doughnut", so the truth is likely closer to 25-40 lbs. of total difference.

To be fair, I'm not 100% up to date, I'm not sure what they do right now, but for the longest time they did not use run flat tires on their M models, which is where weight savings would play significantly bigger role than on 4K lbs. family sedans like 3 and 5 series.

Penalty you pay handling wise is whole another story, but again, that's a matter of personal preference.

Years ago Lincoln de-contented an under the rear parcel shelf sub enclosure to save a few pounds. Don't underestimate the power of the U.S. EPA. They can (and have) but companies out of business with their regulations. Does Canada even have CAFE requirements? A half-per-mile-gallon MPG rating can make or break a manufacturer's ability to meet CAFE (remember, that 1/2 mpg extrapolated over an entire model is HUGE!) and avoid monstrous fines. Like it or not, fair or not, the U.S. EPA dictate what regulations manufacturers must meet to sell vehicles here. We used to buy so-called gray-market cars (cars manufactured outside the USA and then imported without the need to meet USA regulations). The EPA shut that down a few decades ago. I would argue that the USA EPA is the most powerful organization on the planet!

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Encendido3

Is it really that night a day between runflats and regular tires? I really couldn't see what the issue was with the run flats but then again I was coming from an older Honda Civic to my newer 535 so not really apples to apples. Who actually carries a spare with them in their 535?

Some users talk as if they ae still on 1st/2nd generation run-flats. Years back there was a night and day difference, (been there so know the score). Today, that has completely changed.

Some users are changing from UHP run-flats to the non run-flat equivalent and there is hardly any difference in tire performance. Still other users who would change tires at the first opportunity, are now staying with run-flats, as they can hardly tell any difference and the benefits of run-flats, mean on balance, they are worth sticking with.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by ezaircon4jc

Years ago Lincoln de-contented an under the rear parcel shelf sub enclosure to save a few pounds. Don't underestimate the power of the U.S. EPA. They can (and have) but companies out of business with their regulations. Does Canada even have CAFE requirements? A half-per-mile-gallon MPG rating can make or break a manufacturer's ability to meet CAFE (remember, that 1/2 mpg extrapolated over an entire model is HUGE!) and avoid monstrous fines. Like it or not, fair or not, the U.S. EPA dictate what regulations manufacturers must meet to sell vehicles here. We used to buy so-called gray-market cars (cars manufactured outside the USA and then imported without the need to meet USA regulations). The EPA shut that down a few decades ago. I would argue that the USA EPA is the most powerful organization on the planet!

Similar in Europe, every gram of CO2 shaved off the manufacturer's fleet is very important to meeting emission targets. Big penalties in Europe, to the manufacturers, if they miss the targets.

Why do we have 1.5 3-cylinder ICE in a 3-series for example?

On the spare wheel/weight issue, remember wheels these days are not only heavy, but large in size. Wheel wells have to be huge and that also compromises vehicle design, space and crumple zones.

Then add in one key reason for BMW pushing on with run-flats, was customer request. Believe it or not, many BMW users do want the security of run-flat tires. Same as they love electronic dipsticks.

[Bbb34]

Originally Posted by ezaircon4jc

Does Canada even have CAFE requirements? A half-per-mile-gallon MPG rating can make or break a manufacturer's ability to meet CAFE (remember, that 1/2 mpg extrapolated over an entire model is HUGE!) and avoid monstrous fines.

I genuinely do not know details of CAFE requirement (and am too lazy to look it up to be honest ), but surely a single spare tire cannot be the only way to meet it (my rough estimate of about 30-40 lbs of total weight savings, isn't far off I believe, and I'm completely ignoring the fact that runflat tires are heavier than regular tires, just for somewhat more measured discussion). Also, my very non scientific observation is that I'm not seeing massive millage change on any of my vehicles traveling with a reasonably large suitcase, sports equipment or a child or two (heck even a whole family) but to be fair, I did not measure every drop on every trip I've ever taken.

Fact remains, it is more difficult and expensive to design and manufacture safe, lower fuel consumption car with wheel well for spare tire than without.

Can it be done?? You bet it can, many other manufacturers are doing it and selling vehicles in US just fine, this is just way easier (read: "cheaper") for BMW.

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Then add in one key reason for BMW pushing on with run-flats, was customer request. Believe it or not, many BMW users do want the security of run-flat tires. Same as they love electronic dipsticks.

I fully get and appreciate that you like them on your vehicles, we all "adopt" and appreciate things differently.

However, we read the same forums, we both know that not "all" customers "requested" or "buy" into runflat tires.

This is something that was simply imposed on all "non M" owners by BMW for one reason or another (my theory is cost savings, who knows if I'm actually correct).

Just like my comment about gas mileage above, my "evidence' is non scientific, but most people I personally know who own modern BMWs could not wait to get them off their vehicles, all while fully aware of the risk they are taking driving without spare, with various kits, and perhaps towing company number on the speed dial.

Also, G30 (not sure about 3 series these days) from what I understand can be ordered without runflats, not sure where this fits in safety/CAFE or other arguments, seems that BMW might've listened to some of their customers at least.

Wheel Option
24W 18" Double-spoke wheels, style 634 - With all-season non run-flat tires (18x8.0, 245/45 R18) $0

[ezaircon4jc]

Originally Posted by Bbb34

I genuinely do not know details of CAFE requirement (and am too lazy to look it up to be honest ), but surely a single spare tire cannot be the only way to meet it (my rough estimate of about 30-40 lbs of total weight savings, isn't far off I believe, and I'm completely ignoring the fact that runflat tires are heavier than regular tires, just for somewhat more measured discussion). Also, my very non scientific observation is that I'm not seeing massive millage change on any of my vehicles traveling with a reasonably large suitcase, sports equipment or a child or two (heck even a whole family) but to be fair, I did not measure every drop on every trip I've ever taken. ...

Don't confuse real-world economy with the EPA (and I'd bet European agencies) testing procedures. EPA's test loop is nothing like anyone drives. It's very controlled and not at all realistic! It's so stupid that the Lincoln I had had to start in 2nd gear when in the manual shift mode to avoid the Gas Guzzler Tax. Starting in 2nd gear vs. 1st gear "saved" a whopping .3 mpg! EPA eliminated that test in 2002 so the 2003-2006 was able to start in 1st gear.

"On July 29, 2011, President Obama announced an agreement with thirteen large automakers to increase fuel economy to 54.5 miles per gallon for cars and light-duty trucks by model year 2025. He was joined by Ford, GM, Chrysler, BMW, Honda, Hyundai, Jaguar/Land Rover, Kia, Mazda, Mitsubishi, Nissan, Toyota, and Volvo—which together account for over 90% of all vehicles sold in the United States—as well as the United Auto Workers (UAW), and the State of California, who were all participants in the deal."

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Bbb34

Fact remains, it is more difficult and expensive to design and manufacture safe, lower fuel consumption car with wheel well for spare tire than without.

Can it be done?? You bet it can, many other manufacturers are doing it and selling vehicles in US just fine, this is just way easier (read: "cheaper") for BMW.

I think you are missing the bigger picture. No spare wheel, stop-start, coasting, EPS, complex energy management and the rest of ongoing developments, are not primarily about cost cutting, although some benefits may be there.

You must remember BMW is German, the home market dictates a lot of the development. Emission levels is the big issue, European market dictates a lot of what is being fitted. It's an "every little helps" solution.

Originally Posted by Bbb34

I fully get and appreciate that you like them on your vehicles, we all "adopt" and appreciate things differently.

However, we read the same forums, we both know that not "all" customers "requested" or "buy" into runflat tires.

This is something that was simply imposed on all "non M" owners by BMW for one reason or another (my theory is cost savings, who knows if I'm actually correct).

I'm currently on run-flats, but my preference would still be normal tyres and a full sized spare under the floor. But it is not that simple, and I don't want a spare wheel in the trunk space. I've been there with an E91, was a compromise I'm not needing to take with improved run-flats and a car set up better to hide the negative aspects of a run-flat tire.

It has been documented that one of the key requests from users in focus groups, the desire for a "run-on-flat" tire. Many BMW users are in that group.

Maybe BMW thought they could get away with hard unforgiving rides with early run-flats, due to many BMW users (pre run-flat days) already tolerating poor ride quality on Sport suspensions.

Originally Posted by Bbb34

Also, G30 (not sure about 3 series these days) from what I understand can be ordered without runflats, not sure where this fits in safety/CAFE or other arguments, seems that BMW might've listened to some of their customers at least.

Choices... still the issues of what to do in an emergency. The option of a mobility kit, spare wheel in the trunk space, or using (BMW) Emergency Services. Same limited options as removing run-flats, or driving M-models.

[Bbb34]

All very valid points HighlandPete and ezaircon4jc - no doubt, I can certainly see and appreciate your side of the argument.

These facts (at least in my mind) remain though.

Runflats (current and first gen) are noisier tires, offering less grip, not as good thread life with greater potential of sidewall bubbles and bursts on impact. They also cost significantly more, and choices and sometimes availability of tires are limited. All of this in the name of meeting fuel efficiency standard and "potential" to be marginally safer in certain situations.

To me that's the "big picture" with runflat tires, not what I'm told by BMW marketing department.

Many (most) other manufacturers have managed to meet the same fuel efficiency and safety standards and most of them do not force their customers into runflat tires. It's been well over 10 years since this "trend" started, and it hasn't quite become new standard for all car manufacturers, in my opinion, for a reason.

I like the brand and appreciate their tech/innovation/quality/look/performance, and absolutely love this particular vehicle in their lineup. However it's one "proper" spare tire short of a perfect, absolutely perfect vehicle for me.

[Pierre Louis]

I liked my non-run-flat Michelin PSS's when replacing Bridgestone OEM tires on my sport e90, but fuel economy standards for run-flats? Never heard of that. Looking for a "Green" tire doesn't include on the list any RFT.

Equivalent RFT are about the same weight and tread life as their non-RFT counterparts.

I've yet to experience "bubbling" in my RFT's when hitting a hard pothole, even when the wheel gets damaged, but others apparently reported this.

I have found them to be a bit stiffer than non-RFT's but adjusting the tire pressure up seems to help. All my high performance tires, RFT or not, seem to age poorly making lots of noise and getting stiffer as well as more scalloping etc.

Current generation RFT's are much better than first generation.

[spielnicht]

I just literally got nails in 2 of my tires over the past 6 days. One of the tires is getting there tread wise, but the other was recently replaced because the previous tire had a nail. I decided this time around that I will not be replacing them with another set of run flats. I'm gonna wear them down and replace all 4 with non-run flats in the summer alongside hopefully some new HRE or BBS 20" wheels.

I researched around and found instructions from Michelin's site that unless you've driven on the tires with no air, puncture is larger than 1/4", falls on the shoulder area, or tire had been repaired previously for a puncture, you can patch it. Mine met all the criteria but the dealer and Goodyear tire store still refused to repair. First gas station I tried also said no, but then found another that understood my situation and repaired both for $25/each. So far so good. Just need them to last until August.

So once again, run flats are garbage, but can be repaired if you meet the criteria. Obviously, don't take my word for it - do what you feel safest with.