[BimmerGuyFL]

So with all the magazine reviews and many persons including myself complaining how the new 2011 5-series models have gone from excellent steering feedback from the previous generations to the new non informative setup or feel, I feel that BMW should make a solid attempt to change this at least for the 2012 models and forward. The BMW E46 3-series model year 2001 had a steering change where many persons complained about less steering feedback and how light the steering felt. BMW changed this in model year 2002 and went back to the traditional steering feed back with the proper heft built back into the E46 chassis.

Why can't BMW just go back to Hydraulic steering for the standard models and for those who like the more artificial feel and offer electric steering only on Integral Active Steering optioned cars.

[algoodman]

Originally Posted by BimmerGuyFL

So with all the magazine reviews and many persons including myself complaining how the new 2011 5-series models have gone from excellent steering feedback from the previous generations to the new non informative setup or feel, I feel that BMW should make a solid attempt to change this at least for the 2012 models and forward. The BMW E46 3-series model year 2001 had a steering change where many persons complained about less steering feedback and how light the steering felt. BMW changed this in model year 2002 and went back to the traditional steering feed back with the proper heft built back into the E46 chassis.

Why can't BMW just go back to Hydraulic steering for the standard models and for those who like the more artificial feel and offer electric steering only on Integral Active Steering optioned cars.

You can buy the 535i xDrive which uses hydraulic steering.

[cukoodukoo]

Originally Posted by algoodman

You can buy the 535i xDrive which uses hydraulic steering.

Are u sure about that?

[bm323]

Originally Posted by algoodman

You can buy the 535i xDrive which uses hydraulic steering.

Have you tested the 535i back to back with the xDrive version, with same handling options, and if so what's the difference pls?

[TurboFan]

I wouldn't be surprised to see the sport package including a different steering system moving forward. It's been done before by BMW. Many people in the 5 series target market like the steering system as it is. They happen to be the quiet, non-enthusiast, non-forum going, non-car rag reading buyer that makes up the bulk of 5 series sales. However, BMW will have to appease the vocal minority and do something. I didn't think the steering on the 550i sport was bad, but it could be better. After all, it's not a race car.

[deejaygee]

Do you know what i love my car and love the steering, yes it's light but iits a new car!!!!
I am happy, wish people would stop cracking on about it to be honest.

[bimmerfrei]

They should revise it and then spend the next five months travelling home to each and every one of their F10 customers and apologize. The vague steering feel has totally ruined the joy I was expecting from my new 5'er. When I got my 335d I was in love with the car from the first drive until the day I sold it. Wish I wouldn't have swapped car.

I’m not 100% sure, but I suspect that people with the IAS are more happy with the steering feel.

[HighlandPete]

At this stage is anyone really sure what the issues are with the steering?

We seem to have several issues. Light/vague steering, but only in some cars, not a model specific issue and doesn't seem to be due to the option pack either. I've driven one F10 which was as meaty and direct as any hydraulic system in previous BMW cars. But another, which had different wheels which was much lighter and vague around mid position. Another which needed steering correction and easily followed the road surface.

Then there's the steering pull issue, on some cars, I'm not sure it is totally sorted with mechanical adjustments and software fixes. Is that now really sorted on recent build dates? I'm not convinced as there's a report of a recent build pulling left in the UK. Now a user with a new steering rack, changing the 70 -80 mph vague and 'cogging' steering, ZF saying it was 'in tolerance', I'm not sure we really know what is going on with these cars.

I know I could go to my dealer today and get in one of his cars and the steering is virtually perfect, precise and meaty. It has no active suspension parts, has the sport auto and rides on 19" Pirelli tires. So what would need adjusting? But his demo 520d wagon, simple passive setup, is another story, that is not my cup of tea at all.

HighlandPete

[bimmerfrei]

What I have experienced is a pull and a vague feeling.

My first concern was that the car would pull to the right or left depending on the road. This I believe is due to the "mechanics" being too sensitive to the road surface. After three visits to the dealer, the pull problem is almost solved. On a perfectly flat road it will go 100% straight which wasn't the case before. On less perfect roads it will pull, but not more than any other car.

The other issue, with the steering being very light and displaying a lack of feeling, is my main concern now. It's like the connection between the tyres and the steering wheel is heavily filtered. I deliberately did not choose IAS because I wanted the traditional meaty BMW feeling where you know exactly how the front wheels are behaving. Obviously, that wasn’t the case.

For those of you who are golfers it's like the difference between a forged blade club and a cast cavity back. The first giving you excellent feedback on every shot and the other hardly giving you any feedback at all on how well you struck the ball.

[algoodman]

Originally Posted by bm323

Have you tested the 535i back to back with the xDrive version, with same handling options, and if so what's the difference pls?

No

[bm323]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

At this stage is anyone really sure what the issues are with the steering?

We seem to have several issues. ...

++1 exactly. There are even 2 forummers who have their F10s wandering left/right when going straight. Imo, these are defects and they are different defects.

[BimmerGuyFL]

Originally Posted by TurboFan

I wouldn't be surprised to see the sport package including a different steering system moving forward. It's been done before by BMW. Many people in the 5 series target market like the steering system as it is. They happen to be the quiet, non-enthusiast, non-forum going, non-car rag reading buyer that makes up the bulk of 5 series sales. However, BMW will have to appease the vocal minority and do something. I didn't think the steering on the 550i sport was bad, but it could be better. After all, it's not a race car.

Well then BMW should change there solgan from the Ultimate Driving Machine to something that is not misleading.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by BimmerGuyFL

Well then BMW should change there solgan from the Ultimate Driving Machine to something that is not misleading.

But they have in many markets... the 'experience JOY' thing has been promoted. I've read somewhere that the 'Ultimate Driving Machine' has given the wrong message, cost them sales and they have adjusted to the bigger sales market.

To be honest, softening the non M-cars can only be a good thing for many drivers, as poor road conditions and less than perfect surfaces only amplify the firm setups in some BMW models. Don't forget some users carry passengers and it's not uncommon for passengers to complain about the poor ride in a BMW.

HighlandPete

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by bimmerfrei

.....It's like the connection between the tyres and the steering wheel is heavily filtered. I deliberately did not choose IAS because I wanted the traditional meaty BMW feeling where you know exactly how the front wheels are behaving.

Personally I don't believe we've had the true BMW feel since run-flats were introduced. I concede on good surfaces, where the tires are not causing conflicts, then we may experience good steering response, but for many of us that deteriorates in most of our driving to very poor steering dynamics.

Just last evening I was reading in the UK's TotalBMW magazine, reviewing the F11. Thought this is an appropriate comment.

TotalBMW
"The standard ride veers towards comfort with a view to dialling out the harshness of the standard run-flat tyres".

Yes I do believe the filtering is there, ride and steering, it is necessary if BMW want to keep a lot of their customers.

Even the passive M-sport suspension can be deleted from the M-sport models in the UK, get the styling but not the more aggressive ride. I see that as customer demand, rather than a BMW initiative.

HighlandPete

[bimmerfrei]

In my case the reason why the car is wandering both to the right and to the left is the poor Swedish roads. Since a lot of people use studded winter tyres (probably 80% of all cars in wintertime) there are deep tracks in a lot of roads. If you keep within the tracks, fine. If you move to the right of them, the car will want to move to the right and vice versa. Can't really blame the car, but if the steering is very sensitive the effect is more obvious.

[EdM5]

Originally Posted by bimmerfrei

After three visits to the dealer, the pull problem is almost solved.

What exactly, did the dealer do to tackle the pull problem?

[BimmerGuyFL]

This topic was not for the pulling problems. It was more on the idea that BMW needs to redesign/revise the Steering system or go back to a Hydraulic steering setup. The new electric steering does not have the traditional steering feel/feed back that has made the 5-series the best car in it's class for so many years which is what really seperated it from it's competitors.

[grimlock]

I only realise that im steering when the car is on 'normal' - when its on 'sport' (chassis only) I forget that im steering.
What im saying is that in normal the steering is somehow deficient, in sport I can forget about it. Asked to comment, I would say in normal im being asked to do a lot of work (lots of steering distance traveled, esp in the city) and in sport the ratio is perfect, however for my preferences it could be improved with greater back-to-center force (=more 'sportiness', less luxury)

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by BimmerGuyFL

This topic was not for the pulling problems. It was more on the idea that BMW needs to redesign/revise the Steering system or go back to a Hydraulic steering setup. The new electric steering does not have the traditional steering feel/feed back that has made the 5-series the best car in it's class for so many years which is what really seperated it from it's competitors.

True to a point... I've two questions.

Which model setup are we discussing on the F10/11? As we now know not all steering is equal, even on the F10/11 cars?

Also, what previous BMW cars are we referring to, in what periods, as debates around steering precision is not a new topic by any means?

I come from the era when BMW cars were driving around with steering boxes, so pecision was debatable, compared to other manufacturers in UK/Europe using rack and opinion during the same period.

Even in the E39 days we still had debates on this issue, I had the 540i with the inferior 'box' steering, highly criticised in many quarters for the inprecision. the E46 3-series even with hydraulic power steering and rack and pinion was poor in some models.

So let's be a bit careful on BMW having perfect hydraulic steering through its history, and/or vagueness in some models.

Sure EPS is in its infancy, but drive some older hydraulic steering system BMWs and we may be surprised how precise some of the F10/11 model steering systems are. Put big wheels on some E34 5-series models and again steering precision was lost. There's a lot going on with these new cars, as I said previously, I'm not sure we really understand what is really lacking yet, may not be EPS in itself, but could be a combination of factors.

HighlandPete

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by grimlock

I only realise that im steering when the car is on 'normal' - when its on 'sport' (chassis only) I forget that im steering.What im saying is that in normal the steering is somehow deficient, in sport I can forget about it. Asked to comment, I would say in normal im being asked to do a lot of work (lots of steering distance traveled, esp in the city) and in sport the ratio is perfect, however for my preferences it could be improved with greater back-to-center force (=more 'sportiness', less luxury)

Good observation, I'd say that is what BMW are intending. Can you remind us what package you have on your car?

HighlandPete

[BimmerGuyFL]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

True to a point... I've two questions.

Which model setup are we discussing on the F10/11? As we now know not all steering is equal, even on the F10/11 cars?

Also, what previous BMW cars are we referring to, in what periods, as debates around steering precision is not a new topic by any means?

I come from the era when BMW cars were driving around with steering boxes, so pecision was debatable, compared to other manufacturers in UK/Europe using rack and opinion during the same period.

Even in the E39 days we still had debates on this issue, I had the 540i with the inferior 'box' steering, highly criticised in many quarters for the inprecision. the E46 3-series even with hydraulic power steering and rack and pinion was poor in some models.

So let's be a bit careful on BMW having perfect hydraulic steering through its history, and/or vagueness in some models.

Sure EPS is in its infancy, but drive some older hydraulic steering system BMWs and we may be surprised how precise some of the F10/11 model steering systems are. Put big wheels on some E34 5-series models and again steering precision was lost. There's a lot going on with these new cars, as I said previously, I'm not sure we really understand what is really lacking yet, may not be EPS in itself, but could be a combination of factors.

HighlandPete

HighlandPete: You make an excellent point. I was talking more about the steering feel from the E39 5-series with rack and Pinion models for the inline 6 engines, NOT the 540i or V8 models. To some degree I feel that the steering in the BMW E36 models also felt amazing. Lots of feedback but gave you confidence behind the wheel of a BMW. I know that the steering on the F10 5-series is percise however it seems to be missing the confidence it gave me that I had in my 2001 530i, 2002 525i, and 2005 330i.

[HighlandPete]

On the broader topic of EPS itself, we are back to electronic interventions and I'm not too convinced myself some human interactions really work well with artificial feeling reactions. For a start, they can be too slow for our brain, not as consistent as we expect from a more mechanically liinked system.

But I'm sure, like with run-flat tires, we will have to adapt. MPG and carbon emissions will push technology that promises much. Also the concept of electronic control should give us the variations we need, to have options for comfort and/or sport steering systems, on demand, on a toggle switch.

We'll have first generation, second generation EPS, just like most technologies I imagine.

HighlandPete