[Dom]

Can anyone who has this combo tell me how it rides on rougher surfaces?

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Dom

Can anyone who has this combo tell me how it rides on rougher surfaces?

Tried on some bad roads up here in the Highlands, on both an F10 530d and on an F11 520d touring, not my choice on standard suspension. Too much of the poor roads and surfaces comes back through the car via steering and the car itself for my taste. In fact I thought 19" wheels worked better on standard supension, (F10 535i) not what I was expecting at all. I'd like to try 17" and see if that works better on standard suspension.

HighlandPete

[rexus300]

I driven several of them with 18 inch and regular suspension over some bumps and pothole ridden roads in Michigan and it was smooth and very compliance and is much more forgiving than my Lexus GS with 18 inch wheels. Trust me, this car has alot better feel over bad roads than the older one. Why don't you go test drive one at a dealer?? There are many of them on the lots. But however it also depends on where you live.

[Dom]

Thanks guys. It's weird how different people have different views on the same suspension set up. Some say it's fine and others say it's rubbish. My dealer doesn't have one available to drive with the 18'' rims - only the 17''. I drove the 17''s and it seemed fine. Is it likely that the 18'' rims would spoil the ride that much - they still seem to have a lot of sidewall. I know the 17''s will give the best ride but I thought the amount of sidewall on them was ridiculous looking.

[LuvMyE92]

Rides great for me, a huge improvement over my 3 series (E92) and any other BMW I've owned except for the 7 series.

[SAuchterlonie]

I have a standard 520 with 18"s on and the ride is great, but the runflats don't like potholes! I've had a few "oooohhhh" moments whilst driving and hit a pothole! I don't think the sidewalls of the runflats can compensate quick enough, but I'm still supprise at how good a ride they give overall!

Simon

[Lost-Again]

I have std 520 F11 with 17s and RFTs and have no problem with the ride. The handling is fine, good turn in, stable with little if any body roll, it really does not feel like a big car. If I have one complaint it is that the steering is absent of any feedback, but it is accurate, so the overall package is very good.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Dom

Thanks guys. It's weird how different people have different views on the same suspension set up. Some say it's fine and others say it's rubbish. My dealer doesn't have one available to drive with the 18'' rims - only the 17''. I drove the 17''s and it seemed fine. Is it likely that the 18'' rims would spoil the ride that much - they still seem to have a lot of sidewall. I know the 17''s will give the best ride but I thought the amount of sidewall on them was ridiculous looking.

Personally I don't think it is strange that there is a spread of opinion. The problem is with many cars these days, we have got used to losing some of the ride refinement, due to the swing towards the sporty drive. So more view a poor set of dynamics as acceptable, get used to what is really neither truely sporty, or refined. I describe many car rides these days as 'knobbly' at normal driving speeds.

Personally I've been driving enough years to realise I like relatively firm suspension for body control, but tyres and bushing that gives good compliance. A fast A - B car without the extremes of harshness or discomfort. The E60/61 standard suspension was still firm, but the low speed ride was stiff and jiggly, because the run-flat tyres amplified the road imperfections. Now BMW (F10/11) are trying to get a softer ride, difficult with any run-flats, by softening the suspension and bushing. To me that translates to a totally compromised drive, where the dynamics are the wrong way around. The car becomes floaty when driving with purpose, wallows, even bounces over poor and broken surfaces. So it is neither really comfortable, or of a balanced 'firm but compliant' quality.

On reasonably good road quality it may be 'good enough', for some of us, but on more 'challenging' road surfaces it goes to pieces, and for some of us that just isn't good enough.

HighlandPete

[grimlock]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Personally I don't think it is strange that there is a spread of opinion. The problem is with many cars these days, we have got used to losing some of the ride refinement, due to the swing towards the sporty drive. So more view a poor set of dynamics as acceptable, get used to what is really neither truely sporty, or refined. I describe many car rides these days as 'knobbly' at normal driving speeds.

Personally I've been driving enough years to realise I like relatively firm suspension for body control, but tyres and bushing that gives good compliance. A fast A - B car without the extremes of harshness or discomfort. The E60/61 standard suspension was still firm, but the low speed ride was stiff and jiggly, because the run-flat tyres amplified the road imperfections. Now BMW (F10/11) are trying to get a softer ride, difficult with any run-flats, by softening the suspension and bushing. To me that translates to a totally compromised drive, where the dynamics are the wrong way around. The car becomes floaty when driving with purpose, wallows, even bounces over poor and broken surfaces. So it is neither really comfortable, or of a balanced 'firm but compliant' quality.

On reasonably good road quality it may be 'good enough', for some of us, but on more 'challenging' road surfaces it goes to pieces, and for some of us that just isn't good enough.

HighlandPete

well put
after some time with my 19' non-runflats I now think much of the initial improvement was illusory. no doubt the negative physical structure of the runflats (additional rubbery support bits inside the tire) is gone, but to be clear there is no added steering feedback that was hoped for. the lower profile sidewall flex improvement is less noticeable, due to the higher rigidity of the runflats, in effect substituting stiffer runflats with a hollow tire and lower sidewall. the net effect, is not overtly positive, just different characteristics.
I think much of the steering 'feel' which we wish to obtain has been forever lost (I blame the front suspension change), changing the tires and rims will not get it back, but it can improve things if they are deficient in that area.
I agree with Pete, the softer bushings have great positive effect on ride quality, hence alot of members have gone to 20' rims without complaint. I would not want to change them.
I'll try to target the floatiness or wallowing with a proper combination of dampers+springs, of course that they work in balance being the important consideration.

[Lost-Again]

Originally Posted by grimlock

well put
after some time with my 19' non-runflats I now think much of the initial improvement was illusory. no doubt the negative physical structure of the runflats (additional rubbery support bits inside the tire) is gone, but to be clear there is no added steering feedback that was hoped for. the lower profile sidewall flex improvement is less noticeable, due to the higher rigidity of the runflats, in effect substituting stiffer runflats with a hollow tire and lower sidewall. the net effect, is not overtly positive, just different characteristics.
I think much of the steering 'feel' which we wish to obtain has been forever lost (I blame the front suspension change), changing the tires and rims will not get it back, but it can improve things if they are deficient in that area.
I agree with Pete, the softer bushings have great positive effect on ride quality, hence alot of members have gone to 20' rims without complaint. I would not want to change them.
I'll try to target the floatiness or wallowing with a proper combination of dampers+springs, of course that they work in balance being the important consideration.

Interesting to see you blame the front suspension change to the double wishbone. This surprises me because I also have a Honda S2000 which has electric steering and double wishbone all round. Handling and steering feedback are fantastic, so it can work! However, I would not want the S2000 ride quality in my F11. This car does not float, nothing like the V6 4Motion Passat est I had a while back did. Overall to me it is a reasonable compromise, but I agree that they could have put at least some feedback in the steering...

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Lost-Again

... However, I would not want the S2000 ride quality in my F11.

Overall to me it is a reasonable compromise, but I agree that they could have put at least some feedback in the steering...

I think in your comments you emphasis to me the crux of the issue. Widen out into other marques (even 1 & 3-series BMWs) and we get some different opinions and feelings, some new users finding the BMW a superb car and ride, by comparison.

"Reasonable compromise", sure it is... but good enough for many 5-series BMW drivers who have had the 'cream' in other models... not so sure.

Hence the 'hunting' through the suspension and wheel spec' options, to try and get the best 'compromise' we can afford.

HighlandPete

[grimlock]

Originally Posted by Lost-Again

Interesting to see you blame the front suspension change to the double wishbone. This surprises me because I also have a Honda S2000 which has electric steering and double wishbone all round. Handling and steering feedback are fantastic, so it can work! However, I would not want the S2000 ride quality in my F11. This car does not float, nothing like the V6 4Motion Passat est I had a while back did. Overall to me it is a reasonable compromise, but I agree that they could have put at least some feedback in the steering...

Well I'm just taking a potshot at the change to double wishbone. Its interesting the S2000 you describe, it shows its not fundamentally a characteristic of the double wishbone to lower driving feel. I have limited knowledge of these things, so I'm just speculating most of the time.
Perhaps the 'key' to the f10 driving feel lies elsewhere, to date I have only changed tires and rims. I plan to get the springs and dampers done, and hopefully we'll have another piece to the puzzle.
It would be a great irony if the problem could be solved through software, as there are just too many variables for end-users and hobbyists like us to get a grip on these issues. But that won't stop us from trying.

Agree. I think the main issue is (steering) feedback. Then some minor floatiness/wallowing. But I think we can solve some of the latter easier, the former remains much more elusive.

(I think I need to drive more different cars from now on )

[HighlandPete]

I haven't given the actual suspension changes much thinking time of yet. But likely will do.

One thing that does come to mind, is the fact BMW are trying hard to hide the poor run-flat dynamics. We have been used to a particular type of front supension, which characteristics are obviously felt through the car. I do wonder if what 'us' engineers refer to as 'stiction' in the 'loaded' damper, (now possibly a lack of), has a major contribution to the changes in the steering feedback and the poise to the car's front end. A damper that can run more freely, to cushion the run-flat harshness, will also be 'softer' to forces in the other direction, back to the steering wheel. I need to think about it a bit more.

HighlandPete

[Lost-Again]

Looking at the wide array of performance cars using the double wishbone principal, although not a suspension expert im confident this is unlikely to be the problem. It is likely to be in the steering and in the software controlling the steering. There is a good thread on this somewhere on this forum, (cant find it at the moment) proving that you should be able to program any feedback force you wish into the setup on the 5, BMW appear to have chose not to use this or possibly just got it wrong? The good news is that re-programming could/should put it right, and it does not need to cost anything. As with all these things it is likely they read this forum and will correct the software, but wont make it available to existing users.

[grimlock]

I would like to know what considerations led to the front suspension change; growing girth, runflats, market segment (E-class comfort), additional electronics etc.
Hmm, very interesting .. I think I see what you're saying - might trying dampers with different damping forces give back some feel? This depends on how much of 'feel' is made up of by the damping force.. very interesting thought

[grimlock]

Originally Posted by Lost-Again

Looking at the wide array of performance cars using the double wishbone principal, although not a suspension expert im confident this is unlikely to be the problem. It is likely to be in the steering and in the software controlling the steering. There is a good thread on this somewhere on this forum, (cant find it at the moment) proving that you should be able to program any feedback force you wish into the setup on the 5, BMW appear to have chose not to use this or possibly just got it wrong? The good news is that re-programming could/should put it right, and it does not need to cost anything. As with all these things it is likely they read this forum and will correct the software, but wont make it available to existing users.

Then we need to raise a ruckus.. and keep going on an on till they start getting worried we are putting off customers

Wouldn't it be cool if BMW offered a personalized profile of preferences, you could select the software-changeable characteristics. Like I want a '8' on the handling vs. comfort option, a 6 on 'on-center steering force' ..
Perhaps a bit too much to expect given we're force-fed runflats, and dealing with the distributors is worse than a root canal.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Lost-Again

Looking at the wide array of performance cars using the double wishbone principal, although not a suspension expert im confident this is unlikely to be the problem. It is likely to be in the steering and in the software controlling the steering.

I know we are moving off topic a bit, as whenever we talk 'ride quality' it is easy to get back to the feeling from the steering wheel as well. Obviously BMW have changed the front suspension to try and improve ride quality, their blurb clearly shows this is the case. At present, the down side does appear to be the steering feel, but as said, it can't be in itself the multi-link setup, others can get it right. But often 1st generation attempts at anything new, don't get it all right first time. Whether it is the EPS or a combination of the new suspension setup, EPS and changes in tyre profiles, time will tell.

I am familiar with VW changing from a MacPherson type suspension on the front of the B4 Passat model, to the 'virtual axis' multi-link suspension (as Audi A4/6) on the B5 model. A much more advanced and precise suspension, so great expectations in use. But to be honest the steering became 'numb', now the suspension side was much improved, a much more mature ride and coped so much better over more surface types, but the steering was detached, the suspension filtered out the vital information that leans towards a 'drivers' car. Now the power steering remained hydraulic, as before, so no EPS to blame for the lack of communication and feel. Latest Passat is back to a MacPherson type front suspension, like the Golf platform. Which of course has a better reputation for more direct steering and feedback, even with EPS.

Will be interesting to see how BMW fine tune the suspension and steering as time passes, as I'm sure they will hone it into a better setup.

HighlandPete